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Re: Device Newbie Questions

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  • Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin)
    ... ... Greetings! I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on some of your questions here. Train aspect is a term used in
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
      <snip>
      > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
      > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is turned?
      >

      Greetings!

      I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on
      some of your questions here.

      Train aspect is a term used in heraldry to describe a 3D or 3/4 aspect
      figure. This gives depth to the figure and makes it look like it is
      three dimensional. Period western (and SCA) heraldry use 2D figures and
      represntations. Think "flat", "face on", or "side on" items. The
      blossom is drawn in an acceptable style.

      Submitting armory to the College of Arms in the SCA means that you will
      need to have a design that can be descibed using the European methods
      of heraldry. Appropriate design for Japanese Mon really doesn't matter
      from that standpoint (don't get me wrong, I like appropriate period
      Japanese Mon, but from a registration standpoint in the SCA it really
      doesn't matter).

      If you want a butterfly (think western butterfly pinned into an insect
      collection) and you want to put some sakura blossoms on the wings, that
      is possible. The butterfly you have now cannot be described as
      a "normal" "western" butterfly, and will not (yes I am making
      assumptions with this, but based on my experience it is true) be able
      to be registered.

      As far as the sakura blossom goes, I'm not sure if it could be
      registered as such, or simply registered as a "cinq-foil" (a five
      petaled flower) with the depiction being artistic license.

      The other option is this: If you find a design that is in a Japanese
      period style, and you want to use it, go ahead. You just won't be able
      to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
      you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
      stop you from using a design you like.

      Furukusu Masahide
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What triune aspect means to the College of Arms is drawn as a three dimensional figure . Generally speaking,
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        >> 3. The significant problem from a College of Arms aspect is the
        >> "triune" aspect of the butterfly. Generally speaking, the College
        >> of Arms resists
        >> registering devices shown in triune aspect. There are exceptions
        >> such as dice.
        >>
        > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
        > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is turned?

        What "triune aspect" means to the College of Arms is "drawn as a
        three dimensional figure". Generally speaking, animals, &c. are
        drawn so that they are more or less squashed. For example, you
        might see them strictly from the side. Your butterfly was obviously
        taken from Japanese sources and is correct for Japan, but the
        folks in the College of Arms may take exception.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The College of Arms pretty much abandoned protecting historical armory about fifteen years ago. Today, it only
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
          > you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
          > stop you from using a design you like.

          The College of Arms pretty much abandoned protecting historical
          armory about fifteen years ago. Today, it only protects "important"
          armory outside of the Society. There is even armory which they
          should in my opinion be protecting which last I heard they do not.
          This includes the provincial arms of the Canadian Provinces and
          the sixteen petal chrysanthemum. Incidentally, you can get arrested
          in Japan for misusing the sixteen petal chrysanthemum. Or at least
          as recently as the late 1980's when a Japanese businessman was
          arrested for doing so.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kelly Thurman Peters
          Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly: http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the one I had chosen?
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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            Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
            http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
            one I had chosen?

            _______
            Takeda Sakura
            Webminister: Crimson River



            On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:35 PM, Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin) wrote:

            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...>
            > wrote:
            > <snip>
            > > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
            > > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is
            > turned?
            > >
            >
            > Greetings!
            >
            > I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on
            > some of your questions here.
            >
            > Train aspect is a term used in heraldry to describe a 3D or 3/4 aspect
            > figure. This gives depth to the figure and makes it look like it is
            > three dimensional. Period western (and SCA) heraldry use 2D figures
            > and
            > represntations. Think "flat", "face on", or "side on" items. The
            > blossom is drawn in an acceptable style.
            >
            > Submitting armory to the College of Arms in the SCA means that you
            > will
            > need to have a design that can be descibed using the European methods
            > of heraldry. Appropriate design for Japanese Mon really doesn't matter
            > from that standpoint (don't get me wrong, I like appropriate period
            > Japanese Mon, but from a registration standpoint in the SCA it really
            > doesn't matter).
            >
            > If you want a butterfly (think western butterfly pinned into an insect
            > collection) and you want to put some sakura blossoms on the wings,
            > that
            > is possible. The butterfly you have now cannot be described as
            > a "normal" "western" butterfly, and will not (yes I am making
            > assumptions with this, but based on my experience it is true) be able
            > to be registered.
            >
            > As far as the sakura blossom goes, I'm not sure if it could be
            > registered as such, or simply registered as a "cinq-foil" (a five
            > petaled flower) with the depiction being artistic license.
            >
            > The other option is this: If you find a design that is in a Japanese
            > period style, and you want to use it, go ahead. You just won't be able
            > to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
            > you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
            > stop you from using a design you like.
            >
            > Furukusu Masahide
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... You would have a better chance of getting it through the College of Arms. However, you might still have problems due
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
              > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
              > one I had chosen?

              You would have a better chance of getting it through the College of
              Arms.
              However, you might still have problems due to the non Anglo-Norman
              depiction of the butterfly.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • kegage
              You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes the college s
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 3, 2008
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                You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a
                butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes
                the college's scrutiny, display it in Trian Aspect.

                Uilleam

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                > one I had chosen?
                >
                > _______
                > Takeda Sakura
                > Webminister: Crimson River
                >
              • Kelly Thurman Peters
                Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other reason that to use it to draw something off of. _______ Takeda Sakura Webminister: Crimson
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 3, 2008
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                  Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other
                  reason that to use it to draw something off of.

                  _______
                  Takeda Sakura
                  Webminister: Crimson River



                  On Jul 3, 2008, at 5:49 PM, kegage wrote:

                  > You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a
                  > butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes
                  > the college's scrutiny, display it in Trian Aspect.
                  >
                  > Uilleam
                  >
                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                  > > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                  > > one I had chosen?


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • kegage
                  I don t have a source at the moment, but I will search around and see what I can find. Uilleam
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 5, 2008
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                    I don't have a source at the moment, but I will search around and see
                    what I can find.

                    Uilleam

                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other
                    > reason that to use it to draw something off of.
                    >
                    > _______
                    > Takeda Sakura
                    > Webminister: Crimson River
                    >
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