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Re: [SCA-JML] Period Bag

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Aside from the all-purpose furoshiki already mentioned, the Japanese did have bags with draw strings. However, I don t
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 30 7:43 PM
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! Aside from the all-purpose furoshiki already
      mentioned, the Japanese did have bags with draw strings. However, I
      don't recall anything resembling a grocery bag. Regardless,
      particularly valuable items might be wrapped in a silk bag. You
      should search for "shifuku". I tried that a few moments ago, but
      didn't find what I was looking for. Maybe this a problem with the
      obscurity of tea jargon.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kelly Thurman Peters
      I have been working on my device, it is a sakura mon shadowed on a simplified butterfly mon (Agehanochō the butterfly mon of the Taira clan). My local herald
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
        I have been working on my device, it is a sakura mon shadowed on a
        simplified butterfly mon (Agehanochō the butterfly mon of the Taira
        clan). My local herald doesn't have any experience with anything
        Japanese and ask that I asked on here for advice on how to blazon it.
        My persona is from the muromachi period if that is relevant.

        Thanks in advance for your help

        _______
        Takeda Sakura
        Webminister: Crimson River





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kelly Thurman Peters
        Since it stripped off the html, here are the relevant links. My device: http://pics.livejournal.com/takedasakura/pic/0000fr26 Agehanochō:
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
          Since it stripped off the html, here are the relevant links.

          My device: http://pics.livejournal.com/takedasakura/pic/0000fr26

          Agehanochō: http://pics.livejournal.com/takedasakura/pic/0000as9e




          On Jul 1, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Kelly Thurman Peters wrote:
          > I have been working on my device, it is a sakura mon shadowed on a
          > simplified butterfly mon (Agehanochō the butterfly mon of the Taira
          > clan). My local herald doesn't have any experience with anything
          > Japanese and ask that I asked on here for advice on how to blazon it.
          > My persona is from the muromachi period if that is relevant.
          >
          > Thanks in advance for your help
          >
          > _______
          > Takeda Sakura
          > Webminister: Crimson River
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          ... Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... 1. It has to be blazoned using the SCA blazoning system. Thus, your local herald or a regional herald needs to
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
            >>

            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            >> I have been working on my device, it is a sakura mon shadowed on a
            >> simplified butterfly mon (Agehanochō the butterfly mon of the Taira
            >> clan). My local herald doesn't have any experience with anything
            >> Japanese and ask that I asked on here for advice on how to blazon it.
            >> My persona is from the muromachi period if that is relevant.

            1. It has to be blazoned using the SCA blazoning system. Thus, your
            local herald or a regional herald needs to come up with a herald speak
            approach to things.

            2. There are several problems with the design. For SCA purposes, you
            might consider whether or not the sakura design shouldn't be put on
            both wings of the butterfly. As a recreation of Japanese heraldry, the
            proposed design is rather poor as there is no significant connection
            between butterflies and cherry blossoms.

            3. The significant problem from a College of Arms aspect is the "triune"
            aspect of the butterfly. Generally speaking, the College of Arms resists
            registering devices shown in triune aspect. There are exceptions such
            as dice.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kelly Thurman Peters
            ... I had a version with it on both wings actually and wasn t sure which would be more correct. So, that actually helps me decide which of the two to submit.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
              On Jul 1, 2008, at 10:48 PM, Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
              > 2. There are several problems with the design. For SCA purposes,
              > you might consider whether or not the sakura design shouldn't be
              > put on both wings of the butterfly.
              >
              I had a version with it on both wings actually and wasn't sure which
              would be more correct. So, that actually helps me decide which of the
              two to submit.

              > As a recreation of Japanese heraldry, the proposed design is rather
              > poor as there is no significant connection between butterflies and
              > cherry blossoms.
              >
              I was going with the ephemeral quality of life that sakura represent.
              They're considered beautiful and are short lived, butterflies are
              considered beautiful and short lived, both things quite delicate, as
              well as the possible visual representation of falling sakura being
              similar to the flight of butterflies. I may be stretching way too
              hard there, or I might not understand what correct connections should
              be, so if that doesn't work, then maybe you could give me an example
              or two of appropriate connections. : )

              > 3. The significant problem from a College of Arms aspect is the
              > "triune" aspect of the butterfly. Generally speaking, the College
              > of Arms resists
              > registering devices shown in triune aspect. There are exceptions
              > such as dice.
              >
              I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
              exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is turned?

              Thanks for your help.

              ______
              Takeda Sakura
              Webminister: Crimson River

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin)
              ... ... Greetings! I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on some of your questions here. Train aspect is a term used in
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
                <snip>
                > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
                > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is turned?
                >

                Greetings!

                I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on
                some of your questions here.

                Train aspect is a term used in heraldry to describe a 3D or 3/4 aspect
                figure. This gives depth to the figure and makes it look like it is
                three dimensional. Period western (and SCA) heraldry use 2D figures and
                represntations. Think "flat", "face on", or "side on" items. The
                blossom is drawn in an acceptable style.

                Submitting armory to the College of Arms in the SCA means that you will
                need to have a design that can be descibed using the European methods
                of heraldry. Appropriate design for Japanese Mon really doesn't matter
                from that standpoint (don't get me wrong, I like appropriate period
                Japanese Mon, but from a registration standpoint in the SCA it really
                doesn't matter).

                If you want a butterfly (think western butterfly pinned into an insect
                collection) and you want to put some sakura blossoms on the wings, that
                is possible. The butterfly you have now cannot be described as
                a "normal" "western" butterfly, and will not (yes I am making
                assumptions with this, but based on my experience it is true) be able
                to be registered.

                As far as the sakura blossom goes, I'm not sure if it could be
                registered as such, or simply registered as a "cinq-foil" (a five
                petaled flower) with the depiction being artistic license.

                The other option is this: If you find a design that is in a Japanese
                period style, and you want to use it, go ahead. You just won't be able
                to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
                you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
                stop you from using a design you like.

                Furukusu Masahide
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What triune aspect means to the College of Arms is drawn as a three dimensional figure . Generally speaking,
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >> 3. The significant problem from a College of Arms aspect is the
                  >> "triune" aspect of the butterfly. Generally speaking, the College
                  >> of Arms resists
                  >> registering devices shown in triune aspect. There are exceptions
                  >> such as dice.
                  >>
                  > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
                  > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is turned?

                  What "triune aspect" means to the College of Arms is "drawn as a
                  three dimensional figure". Generally speaking, animals, &c. are
                  drawn so that they are more or less squashed. For example, you
                  might see them strictly from the side. Your butterfly was obviously
                  taken from Japanese sources and is correct for Japan, but the
                  folks in the College of Arms may take exception.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The College of Arms pretty much abandoned protecting historical armory about fifteen years ago. Today, it only
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
                    > you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
                    > stop you from using a design you like.

                    The College of Arms pretty much abandoned protecting historical
                    armory about fifteen years ago. Today, it only protects "important"
                    armory outside of the Society. There is even armory which they
                    should in my opinion be protecting which last I heard they do not.
                    This includes the provincial arms of the Canadian Provinces and
                    the sixteen petal chrysanthemum. Incidentally, you can get arrested
                    in Japan for misusing the sixteen petal chrysanthemum. Or at least
                    as recently as the late 1980's when a Japanese businessman was
                    arrested for doing so.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kelly Thurman Peters
                    Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly: http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the one I had chosen?
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
                      Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                      http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                      one I had chosen?

                      _______
                      Takeda Sakura
                      Webminister: Crimson River



                      On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:35 PM, Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin) wrote:

                      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > <snip>
                      > > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
                      > > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is
                      > turned?
                      > >
                      >
                      > Greetings!
                      >
                      > I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on
                      > some of your questions here.
                      >
                      > Train aspect is a term used in heraldry to describe a 3D or 3/4 aspect
                      > figure. This gives depth to the figure and makes it look like it is
                      > three dimensional. Period western (and SCA) heraldry use 2D figures
                      > and
                      > represntations. Think "flat", "face on", or "side on" items. The
                      > blossom is drawn in an acceptable style.
                      >
                      > Submitting armory to the College of Arms in the SCA means that you
                      > will
                      > need to have a design that can be descibed using the European methods
                      > of heraldry. Appropriate design for Japanese Mon really doesn't matter
                      > from that standpoint (don't get me wrong, I like appropriate period
                      > Japanese Mon, but from a registration standpoint in the SCA it really
                      > doesn't matter).
                      >
                      > If you want a butterfly (think western butterfly pinned into an insect
                      > collection) and you want to put some sakura blossoms on the wings,
                      > that
                      > is possible. The butterfly you have now cannot be described as
                      > a "normal" "western" butterfly, and will not (yes I am making
                      > assumptions with this, but based on my experience it is true) be able
                      > to be registered.
                      >
                      > As far as the sakura blossom goes, I'm not sure if it could be
                      > registered as such, or simply registered as a "cinq-foil" (a five
                      > petaled flower) with the depiction being artistic license.
                      >
                      > The other option is this: If you find a design that is in a Japanese
                      > period style, and you want to use it, go ahead. You just won't be able
                      > to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
                      > you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
                      > stop you from using a design you like.
                      >
                      > Furukusu Masahide
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... You would have a better chance of getting it through the College of Arms. However, you might still have problems due
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                        > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                        > one I had chosen?

                        You would have a better chance of getting it through the College of
                        Arms.
                        However, you might still have problems due to the non Anglo-Norman
                        depiction of the butterfly.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • kegage
                        You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes the college s
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 3, 2008
                          You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a
                          butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes
                          the college's scrutiny, display it in Trian Aspect.

                          Uilleam

                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                          > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                          > one I had chosen?
                          >
                          > _______
                          > Takeda Sakura
                          > Webminister: Crimson River
                          >
                        • Kelly Thurman Peters
                          Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other reason that to use it to draw something off of. _______ Takeda Sakura Webminister: Crimson
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 3, 2008
                            Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other
                            reason that to use it to draw something off of.

                            _______
                            Takeda Sakura
                            Webminister: Crimson River



                            On Jul 3, 2008, at 5:49 PM, kegage wrote:

                            > You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a
                            > butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes
                            > the college's scrutiny, display it in Trian Aspect.
                            >
                            > Uilleam
                            >
                            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                            > > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                            > > one I had chosen?


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • kegage
                            I don t have a source at the moment, but I will search around and see what I can find. Uilleam
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 5, 2008
                              I don't have a source at the moment, but I will search around and see
                              what I can find.

                              Uilleam

                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other
                              > reason that to use it to draw something off of.
                              >
                              > _______
                              > Takeda Sakura
                              > Webminister: Crimson River
                              >
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