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period spoon

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  • Kelly Thurman Peters
    I know this is insanely vague, but I saw a reference to Japanese feast gear somewhere that showed metal spoons similar to those semi- modern shell shaped sugar
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 29, 2008
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      I know this is insanely vague, but I saw a reference to Japanese
      feast gear somewhere that showed metal spoons similar to those semi-
      modern shell shaped sugar spoons. I have looked everywhere for the
      link, but I can't find it. Has anyone else seen this?

      _______
      Takeda Sakura
      Webminister: Crimson River





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JL Badgley
      ... Here s what Rokusei uses in Kyoto to replicate an early Heian period imperial meal. The spoon eventually fell out of fashion--generally speaking, if you
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 29, 2008
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        On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
        > I know this is insanely vague, but I saw a reference to Japanese
        > feast gear somewhere that showed metal spoons similar to those semi-
        > modern shell shaped sugar spoons. I have looked everywhere for the
        > link, but I can't find it. Has anyone else seen this?
        >
        Here's what Rokusei uses in Kyoto to replicate an early Heian period
        imperial meal. The spoon eventually fell out of fashion--generally
        speaking, if you 'need' a spoon because it is soupy, you put it in a
        bowl and drink it:

        http://flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/275265035/in/set-72157600770705582/

        And here are some earlier Chinese spoons on which the Japanese
        examples were modelled:

        http://flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/284657658/in/set-72157600772093455/

        -Ii
      • Kelly Thurman Peters
        Thanks, the second picture is the one I was looking for. I didn t realize they were chinese spoons when I had seen them before. Thanks. _______ Takeda Sakura
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 29, 2008
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          Thanks, the second picture is the one I was looking for. I didn't
          realize they were chinese spoons when I had seen them before. Thanks.

          _______
          Takeda Sakura
          Webminister: Crimson River



          On Jun 29, 2008, at 9:43 PM, JL Badgley wrote:

          > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Kelly Thurman Peters
          > <Nichy@...> wrote:
          > > I know this is insanely vague, but I saw a reference to Japanese
          > > feast gear somewhere that showed metal spoons similar to those semi-
          > > modern shell shaped sugar spoons. I have looked everywhere for the
          > > link, but I can't find it. Has anyone else seen this?
          > >
          > Here's what Rokusei uses in Kyoto to replicate an early Heian period
          > imperial meal. The spoon eventually fell out of fashion--generally
          > speaking, if you 'need' a spoon because it is soupy, you put it in a
          > bowl and drink it:
          >
          > http://flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/275265035/in/set-72157600770705582/
          >
          > And here are some earlier Chinese spoons on which the Japanese
          > examples were modelled:
          >
          > http://flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/284657658/in/set-72157600772093455/
          >
          > -Ii



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Elaine Koogler
          They are actually very similar to the spoons that often come with Korean sets. I have several Korean bell brass spoons that are probably about 100 years old
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 30, 2008
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            They are actually very similar to the spoons that often come with Korean
            sets. I have several Korean bell brass spoons that are probably about
            100 years old that look very much like this. And the Koreans, unlike
            many of the other Far Eastern cultures, have persisted in using metal
            eating implements...even the chopsticks I have are bell brass.

            Kiri

            Kelly Thurman Peters wrote:
            >
            > Thanks, the second picture is the one I was looking for. I didn't
            > realize they were chinese spoons when I had seen them before. Thanks.
            >
            > _______
            > Takeda Sakura
            > Webminister: Crimson River
            >
            > On Jun 29, 2008, at 9:43 PM, JL Badgley wrote:
            >
            > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Kelly Thurman Peters
            > > <Nichy@... <mailto:Nichy%40charter.net>> wrote:
            > > > I know this is insanely vague, but I saw a reference to Japanese
            > > > feast gear somewhere that showed metal spoons similar to those semi-
            > > > modern shell shaped sugar spoons. I have looked everywhere for the
            > > > link, but I can't find it. Has anyone else seen this?
            > > >
            > > Here's what Rokusei uses in Kyoto to replicate an early Heian period
            > > imperial meal. The spoon eventually fell out of fashion--generally
            > > speaking, if you 'need' a spoon because it is soupy, you put it in a
            > > bowl and drink it:
            > >
            > >
            > http://flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/275265035/in/set-72157600770705582/
            > <http://flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/275265035/in/set-72157600770705582/>
            > >
            > > And here are some earlier Chinese spoons on which the Japanese
            > > examples were modelled:
            > >
            > >
            > http://flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/284657658/in/set-72157600772093455/
            > <http://flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/284657658/in/set-72157600772093455/>
            > >
            > > -Ii
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >

            --
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          • Kelly Thurman Peters
            I need to make a very large bag (think large canvas grocery bag) big in order to transport a large wooden tray and some bowls and such. Does anyone have a
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 30, 2008
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              I need to make a very large bag (think large canvas grocery bag) big
              in order to transport a large wooden tray and some bowls and such.
              Does anyone have a link for a bag appropriate for late period
              persona. It's going to have to be rectangular in order to carry the
              tray, but I need to know specifically what the handles, closures and
              such might look like. The fabric I am using is light. I have lining
              fabric as well if that makes any difference.

              _______
              Takeda Sakura
              Webminister: Crimson River




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Andrew T Trembley
              ... Think furoshiki I ve got a bunch of furoshiki links in my del.icio.us andy
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 30, 2008
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                On Jun 30, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Kelly Thurman Peters wrote:
                > I need to make a very large bag (think large canvas grocery bag) big
                > in order to transport a large wooden tray and some bowls and such.
                > Does anyone have a link for a bag appropriate for late period
                > persona. It's going to have to be rectangular in order to carry the
                > tray, but I need to know specifically what the handles, closures and
                > such might look like. The fabric I am using is light. I have lining
                > fabric as well if that makes any difference.

                Think "furoshiki"

                I've got a bunch of furoshiki links in my del.icio.us
                <http://del.icio.us/bovil/japan>

                andy
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Aside from the all-purpose furoshiki already mentioned, the Japanese did have bags with draw strings. However, I don t
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 30, 2008
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig! Aside from the all-purpose furoshiki already
                  mentioned, the Japanese did have bags with draw strings. However, I
                  don't recall anything resembling a grocery bag. Regardless,
                  particularly valuable items might be wrapped in a silk bag. You
                  should search for "shifuku". I tried that a few moments ago, but
                  didn't find what I was looking for. Maybe this a problem with the
                  obscurity of tea jargon.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kelly Thurman Peters
                  I have been working on my device, it is a sakura mon shadowed on a simplified butterfly mon (Agehanochō the butterfly mon of the Taira clan). My local herald
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
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                    I have been working on my device, it is a sakura mon shadowed on a
                    simplified butterfly mon (Agehanochō the butterfly mon of the Taira
                    clan). My local herald doesn't have any experience with anything
                    Japanese and ask that I asked on here for advice on how to blazon it.
                    My persona is from the muromachi period if that is relevant.

                    Thanks in advance for your help

                    _______
                    Takeda Sakura
                    Webminister: Crimson River





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kelly Thurman Peters
                    Since it stripped off the html, here are the relevant links. My device: http://pics.livejournal.com/takedasakura/pic/0000fr26 Agehanochō:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
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                      Since it stripped off the html, here are the relevant links.

                      My device: http://pics.livejournal.com/takedasakura/pic/0000fr26

                      Agehanochō: http://pics.livejournal.com/takedasakura/pic/0000as9e




                      On Jul 1, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Kelly Thurman Peters wrote:
                      > I have been working on my device, it is a sakura mon shadowed on a
                      > simplified butterfly mon (Agehanochō the butterfly mon of the Taira
                      > clan). My local herald doesn't have any experience with anything
                      > Japanese and ask that I asked on here for advice on how to blazon it.
                      > My persona is from the muromachi period if that is relevant.
                      >
                      > Thanks in advance for your help
                      >
                      > _______
                      > Takeda Sakura
                      > Webminister: Crimson River
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      ... Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... 1. It has to be blazoned using the SCA blazoning system. Thus, your local herald or a regional herald needs to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
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                        >>

                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >> I have been working on my device, it is a sakura mon shadowed on a
                        >> simplified butterfly mon (Agehanochō the butterfly mon of the Taira
                        >> clan). My local herald doesn't have any experience with anything
                        >> Japanese and ask that I asked on here for advice on how to blazon it.
                        >> My persona is from the muromachi period if that is relevant.

                        1. It has to be blazoned using the SCA blazoning system. Thus, your
                        local herald or a regional herald needs to come up with a herald speak
                        approach to things.

                        2. There are several problems with the design. For SCA purposes, you
                        might consider whether or not the sakura design shouldn't be put on
                        both wings of the butterfly. As a recreation of Japanese heraldry, the
                        proposed design is rather poor as there is no significant connection
                        between butterflies and cherry blossoms.

                        3. The significant problem from a College of Arms aspect is the "triune"
                        aspect of the butterfly. Generally speaking, the College of Arms resists
                        registering devices shown in triune aspect. There are exceptions such
                        as dice.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kelly Thurman Peters
                        ... I had a version with it on both wings actually and wasn t sure which would be more correct. So, that actually helps me decide which of the two to submit.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 1, 2008
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                          On Jul 1, 2008, at 10:48 PM, Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                          > 2. There are several problems with the design. For SCA purposes,
                          > you might consider whether or not the sakura design shouldn't be
                          > put on both wings of the butterfly.
                          >
                          I had a version with it on both wings actually and wasn't sure which
                          would be more correct. So, that actually helps me decide which of the
                          two to submit.

                          > As a recreation of Japanese heraldry, the proposed design is rather
                          > poor as there is no significant connection between butterflies and
                          > cherry blossoms.
                          >
                          I was going with the ephemeral quality of life that sakura represent.
                          They're considered beautiful and are short lived, butterflies are
                          considered beautiful and short lived, both things quite delicate, as
                          well as the possible visual representation of falling sakura being
                          similar to the flight of butterflies. I may be stretching way too
                          hard there, or I might not understand what correct connections should
                          be, so if that doesn't work, then maybe you could give me an example
                          or two of appropriate connections. : )

                          > 3. The significant problem from a College of Arms aspect is the
                          > "triune" aspect of the butterfly. Generally speaking, the College
                          > of Arms resists
                          > registering devices shown in triune aspect. There are exceptions
                          > such as dice.
                          >
                          I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
                          exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is turned?

                          Thanks for your help.

                          ______
                          Takeda Sakura
                          Webminister: Crimson River

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin)
                          ... ... Greetings! I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on some of your questions here. Train aspect is a term used in
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
                            <snip>
                            > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
                            > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is turned?
                            >

                            Greetings!

                            I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on
                            some of your questions here.

                            Train aspect is a term used in heraldry to describe a 3D or 3/4 aspect
                            figure. This gives depth to the figure and makes it look like it is
                            three dimensional. Period western (and SCA) heraldry use 2D figures and
                            represntations. Think "flat", "face on", or "side on" items. The
                            blossom is drawn in an acceptable style.

                            Submitting armory to the College of Arms in the SCA means that you will
                            need to have a design that can be descibed using the European methods
                            of heraldry. Appropriate design for Japanese Mon really doesn't matter
                            from that standpoint (don't get me wrong, I like appropriate period
                            Japanese Mon, but from a registration standpoint in the SCA it really
                            doesn't matter).

                            If you want a butterfly (think western butterfly pinned into an insect
                            collection) and you want to put some sakura blossoms on the wings, that
                            is possible. The butterfly you have now cannot be described as
                            a "normal" "western" butterfly, and will not (yes I am making
                            assumptions with this, but based on my experience it is true) be able
                            to be registered.

                            As far as the sakura blossom goes, I'm not sure if it could be
                            registered as such, or simply registered as a "cinq-foil" (a five
                            petaled flower) with the depiction being artistic license.

                            The other option is this: If you find a design that is in a Japanese
                            period style, and you want to use it, go ahead. You just won't be able
                            to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
                            you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
                            stop you from using a design you like.

                            Furukusu Masahide
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What triune aspect means to the College of Arms is drawn as a three dimensional figure . Generally speaking,
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig!

                              >> 3. The significant problem from a College of Arms aspect is the
                              >> "triune" aspect of the butterfly. Generally speaking, the College
                              >> of Arms resists
                              >> registering devices shown in triune aspect. There are exceptions
                              >> such as dice.
                              >>
                              > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
                              > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is turned?

                              What "triune aspect" means to the College of Arms is "drawn as a
                              three dimensional figure". Generally speaking, animals, &c. are
                              drawn so that they are more or less squashed. For example, you
                              might see them strictly from the side. Your butterfly was obviously
                              taken from Japanese sources and is correct for Japan, but the
                              folks in the College of Arms may take exception.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The College of Arms pretty much abandoned protecting historical armory about fifteen years ago. Today, it only
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                > to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
                                > you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
                                > stop you from using a design you like.

                                The College of Arms pretty much abandoned protecting historical
                                armory about fifteen years ago. Today, it only protects "important"
                                armory outside of the Society. There is even armory which they
                                should in my opinion be protecting which last I heard they do not.
                                This includes the provincial arms of the Canadian Provinces and
                                the sixteen petal chrysanthemum. Incidentally, you can get arrested
                                in Japan for misusing the sixteen petal chrysanthemum. Or at least
                                as recently as the late 1980's when a Japanese businessman was
                                arrested for doing so.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Kelly Thurman Peters
                                Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly: http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the one I had chosen?
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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                                  Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                                  http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                                  one I had chosen?

                                  _______
                                  Takeda Sakura
                                  Webminister: Crimson River



                                  On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:35 PM, Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin) wrote:

                                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > <snip>
                                  > > I'm not familiar with creating a device at all, I don't understand
                                  > > exactly what that means. Does it mean the way the butterfly is
                                  > turned?
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Greetings!
                                  >
                                  > I happen to be something of a herald, so I thought I would comment on
                                  > some of your questions here.
                                  >
                                  > Train aspect is a term used in heraldry to describe a 3D or 3/4 aspect
                                  > figure. This gives depth to the figure and makes it look like it is
                                  > three dimensional. Period western (and SCA) heraldry use 2D figures
                                  > and
                                  > represntations. Think "flat", "face on", or "side on" items. The
                                  > blossom is drawn in an acceptable style.
                                  >
                                  > Submitting armory to the College of Arms in the SCA means that you
                                  > will
                                  > need to have a design that can be descibed using the European methods
                                  > of heraldry. Appropriate design for Japanese Mon really doesn't matter
                                  > from that standpoint (don't get me wrong, I like appropriate period
                                  > Japanese Mon, but from a registration standpoint in the SCA it really
                                  > doesn't matter).
                                  >
                                  > If you want a butterfly (think western butterfly pinned into an insect
                                  > collection) and you want to put some sakura blossoms on the wings,
                                  > that
                                  > is possible. The butterfly you have now cannot be described as
                                  > a "normal" "western" butterfly, and will not (yes I am making
                                  > assumptions with this, but based on my experience it is true) be able
                                  > to be registered.
                                  >
                                  > As far as the sakura blossom goes, I'm not sure if it could be
                                  > registered as such, or simply registered as a "cinq-foil" (a five
                                  > petaled flower) with the depiction being artistic license.
                                  >
                                  > The other option is this: If you find a design that is in a Japanese
                                  > period style, and you want to use it, go ahead. You just won't be able
                                  > to register it, and it won't show up on award scrolls, etc. As long as
                                  > you aren't using someone else's historical or SCA armory, no one can
                                  > stop you from using a design you like.
                                  >
                                  > Furukusu Masahide
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... You would have a better chance of getting it through the College of Arms. However, you might still have problems due
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
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                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                    > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                                    > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                                    > one I had chosen?

                                    You would have a better chance of getting it through the College of
                                    Arms.
                                    However, you might still have problems due to the non Anglo-Norman
                                    depiction of the butterfly.

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar






                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • kegage
                                    You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes the college s
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 3, 2008
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                                      You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a
                                      butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes
                                      the college's scrutiny, display it in Trian Aspect.

                                      Uilleam

                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                                      > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                                      > one I had chosen?
                                      >
                                      > _______
                                      > Takeda Sakura
                                      > Webminister: Crimson River
                                      >
                                    • Kelly Thurman Peters
                                      Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other reason that to use it to draw something off of. _______ Takeda Sakura Webminister: Crimson
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 3, 2008
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                                        Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other
                                        reason that to use it to draw something off of.

                                        _______
                                        Takeda Sakura
                                        Webminister: Crimson River



                                        On Jul 3, 2008, at 5:49 PM, kegage wrote:

                                        > You might consider submitting the kamon as butterfly from the side (a
                                        > butterfly statant, closed)with the sakura on the wing. After it passes
                                        > the college's scrutiny, display it in Trian Aspect.
                                        >
                                        > Uilleam
                                        >
                                        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Just so I have it straight on the 3D aspect, this type of butterfly:
                                        > > http://i29.tinypic.com/n39p91.jpg would be approvable, but not the
                                        > > one I had chosen?


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • kegage
                                        I don t have a source at the moment, but I will search around and see what I can find. Uilleam
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 5, 2008
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                                          I don't have a source at the moment, but I will search around and see
                                          what I can find.

                                          Uilleam

                                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Kelly Thurman Peters <Nichy@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Do you know where I could find an image like that? If for no other
                                          > reason that to use it to draw something off of.
                                          >
                                          > _______
                                          > Takeda Sakura
                                          > Webminister: Crimson River
                                          >
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