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Re: [SCA-JML] Cut of Heian ginu

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  • JL Badgley
    To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my sources. When I get
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
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      To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence
      for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my
      sources. When I get home I will check.

      That said, the difference, if there is any, is not great as I recall,
      and seems to be mostly in the sleeves--if I'm remembering things
      correctly. And if anything, I believe it is the circumference of the
      sode (with the outer garments being maybe a centimeter or so smaller),
      but I need to check my sources.

      -Ii

      On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Audrey Bergeron-Morin
      <audreybmorin@...> wrote:
      >> Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought what Dalby said was that she had
      >> assumed it was achieved by cutting them smaller but discovered otherwise
      >> when she went to have her picture taken in period costume.
      >
      > Yes, I remember reading that too, and I remember reading it elsewhere
      > also (but they might have been citing Dalby, for all I know). It was a
      > few years ago, though, so don't ask where that "elsewhere" was!
      >
    • wodeford
      Of possible interest: http://wodefordhall.com/heian.htm And recent photos of me in karaginu mo at CostumeCon 26. Ginu are cut to the same size and I ran a
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
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        Of possible interest:
        http://wodefordhall.com/heian.htm

        And recent photos of me in karaginu mo at CostumeCon 26. Ginu are cut
        to the same size and I ran a single tacking stich through the collar
        at the back of the neck and through the top of each set of sleeves.
        (Like lettuce on an overstuffed sandwich, my hitoe sleeves have never
        behaved properly.)
        http://imagecraft.smugmug.com/gallery/4902732_3mA59#P-6-9

        Assuming internet is restored at home, I will have a look at Dalby
        again after work.

        Saionji no Hanae,
        West Kingdom
      • Ellen Badgley
        I just pulled out Jidai Ishou no Nuikata. Some thoughts: - The itsutsuginu in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata is a period cheater garment, made with one body and
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
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          I just pulled out Jidai Ishou no Nuikata. Some thoughts:

          - The itsutsuginu in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata is a period "cheater"
          garment, made with one body and five sets of sleeves/collars/hems.
          For that, it would make sense that any offset, if it exists, would be
          sewn into the garment...but from the illustration of the reconstructed
          garment, it does not appear that there is any offset, or if there is,
          it is very small. (That particular itsutsuginu, though, is five
          layers of the same color, so there's less to contrast).

          - Ii is right about there being a size difference between the inner
          and the other layers of the *whole ensemble*: the bodies are all the
          same size, but the sleeve widths-- and lengths-- vary. The sleeves of
          the outer layers (uwagi and uchiginu) are about a centimeter or so
          smaller in width than the itsutsuginu, but about 5 centimeters smaller
          in length (I believe to help the inner layers "pooch" out and show
          more clearly). The inner layer, the hitoe, is a good 5 centimeters
          wider in the sleeves (and longer in the body as well), so it clearly
          shows all around (the sleeve length here is the same as the
          itsutsuginu).

          I'd say any size difference depends on the type of garment. The hitoe
          (underneath) is the biggest; the kinu used for layering (to form the
          "heart" of the kasane) are all the same size, and any offset is
          produced from the way they are worn; and the (uchiginu and) uwagi are
          a little bit smaller. This makes sense: the outer and inner layers
          will stay where they are, but the layering kinu can be reorganized
          depending on the season.

          - Abe Akirakeiko


          On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:18 PM, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
          > To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence
          > for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my
          > sources. When I get home I will check.
          >
          > That said, the difference, if there is any, is not great as I recall,
          > and seems to be mostly in the sleeves--if I'm remembering things
          > correctly. And if anything, I believe it is the circumference of the
          > sode (with the outer garments being maybe a centimeter or so smaller),
          > but I need to check my sources.
          >
          > -Ii
        • wodeford
          Dalby, Kimono: Fashioning Culture, Chapter 7, p. 235 of my edition, facing the color plate of Ms. Dalby in karaginu mo: I had mistakenly thought that the
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
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            Dalby, Kimono: Fashioning Culture, Chapter 7, p. 235 of my edition,
            facing the color plate of Ms. Dalby in karaginu mo:

            "I had mistakenly thought that the robes in a set must have each been
            cut smaller in order to reveal the edge of the one beneath, but I
            discovered that the effect was created as each layer created more
            bulk, and it was the skill of the dresser that made the edges lie so
            neatly apart....."

            p. 229, see description of hitoe "cut slightly larger than the ones
            that came on top. The hitoe protruded prominently at the sleeve
            openings and hem." The uchigi description repeats the fact that it's
            the bulk of the layers that reveals the edges of the inner ones.

            p. 230, see description of Karaginu with "relatively narrow sleeves."

            See also Abe-hime's response regarding relative dimensions on the
            various garments.

            Saionji no Hanae
            West Kingdom
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