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Re: [SCA-JML] Cut of Heian ginu

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  • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
    ... Yes, I remember reading that too, and I remember reading it elsewhere also (but they might have been citing Dalby, for all I know). It was a few years ago,
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
      > Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought what Dalby said was that she had assumed it was achieved by cutting them smaller but discovered otherwise when she went to have her picture taken in period costume.

      Yes, I remember reading that too, and I remember reading it elsewhere
      also (but they might have been citing Dalby, for all I know). It was a
      few years ago, though, so don't ask where that "elsewhere" was!
    • JL Badgley
      To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my sources. When I get
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
        To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence
        for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my
        sources. When I get home I will check.

        That said, the difference, if there is any, is not great as I recall,
        and seems to be mostly in the sleeves--if I'm remembering things
        correctly. And if anything, I believe it is the circumference of the
        sode (with the outer garments being maybe a centimeter or so smaller),
        but I need to check my sources.

        -Ii

        On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Audrey Bergeron-Morin
        <audreybmorin@...> wrote:
        >> Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought what Dalby said was that she had
        >> assumed it was achieved by cutting them smaller but discovered otherwise
        >> when she went to have her picture taken in period costume.
        >
        > Yes, I remember reading that too, and I remember reading it elsewhere
        > also (but they might have been citing Dalby, for all I know). It was a
        > few years ago, though, so don't ask where that "elsewhere" was!
        >
      • wodeford
        Of possible interest: http://wodefordhall.com/heian.htm And recent photos of me in karaginu mo at CostumeCon 26. Ginu are cut to the same size and I ran a
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
          Of possible interest:
          http://wodefordhall.com/heian.htm

          And recent photos of me in karaginu mo at CostumeCon 26. Ginu are cut
          to the same size and I ran a single tacking stich through the collar
          at the back of the neck and through the top of each set of sleeves.
          (Like lettuce on an overstuffed sandwich, my hitoe sleeves have never
          behaved properly.)
          http://imagecraft.smugmug.com/gallery/4902732_3mA59#P-6-9

          Assuming internet is restored at home, I will have a look at Dalby
          again after work.

          Saionji no Hanae,
          West Kingdom
        • Ellen Badgley
          I just pulled out Jidai Ishou no Nuikata. Some thoughts: - The itsutsuginu in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata is a period cheater garment, made with one body and
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
            I just pulled out Jidai Ishou no Nuikata. Some thoughts:

            - The itsutsuginu in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata is a period "cheater"
            garment, made with one body and five sets of sleeves/collars/hems.
            For that, it would make sense that any offset, if it exists, would be
            sewn into the garment...but from the illustration of the reconstructed
            garment, it does not appear that there is any offset, or if there is,
            it is very small. (That particular itsutsuginu, though, is five
            layers of the same color, so there's less to contrast).

            - Ii is right about there being a size difference between the inner
            and the other layers of the *whole ensemble*: the bodies are all the
            same size, but the sleeve widths-- and lengths-- vary. The sleeves of
            the outer layers (uwagi and uchiginu) are about a centimeter or so
            smaller in width than the itsutsuginu, but about 5 centimeters smaller
            in length (I believe to help the inner layers "pooch" out and show
            more clearly). The inner layer, the hitoe, is a good 5 centimeters
            wider in the sleeves (and longer in the body as well), so it clearly
            shows all around (the sleeve length here is the same as the
            itsutsuginu).

            I'd say any size difference depends on the type of garment. The hitoe
            (underneath) is the biggest; the kinu used for layering (to form the
            "heart" of the kasane) are all the same size, and any offset is
            produced from the way they are worn; and the (uchiginu and) uwagi are
            a little bit smaller. This makes sense: the outer and inner layers
            will stay where they are, but the layering kinu can be reorganized
            depending on the season.

            - Abe Akirakeiko


            On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:18 PM, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
            > To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence
            > for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my
            > sources. When I get home I will check.
            >
            > That said, the difference, if there is any, is not great as I recall,
            > and seems to be mostly in the sleeves--if I'm remembering things
            > correctly. And if anything, I believe it is the circumference of the
            > sode (with the outer garments being maybe a centimeter or so smaller),
            > but I need to check my sources.
            >
            > -Ii
          • wodeford
            Dalby, Kimono: Fashioning Culture, Chapter 7, p. 235 of my edition, facing the color plate of Ms. Dalby in karaginu mo: I had mistakenly thought that the
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
              Dalby, Kimono: Fashioning Culture, Chapter 7, p. 235 of my edition,
              facing the color plate of Ms. Dalby in karaginu mo:

              "I had mistakenly thought that the robes in a set must have each been
              cut smaller in order to reveal the edge of the one beneath, but I
              discovered that the effect was created as each layer created more
              bulk, and it was the skill of the dresser that made the edges lie so
              neatly apart....."

              p. 229, see description of hitoe "cut slightly larger than the ones
              that came on top. The hitoe protruded prominently at the sleeve
              openings and hem." The uchigi description repeats the fact that it's
              the bulk of the layers that reveals the edges of the inner ones.

              p. 230, see description of Karaginu with "relatively narrow sleeves."

              See also Abe-hime's response regarding relative dimensions on the
              various garments.

              Saionji no Hanae
              West Kingdom
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