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Cut of Heian ginu

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  • Dawn Wilson
    Greetings to the list! I am currently working on A&S worthy Heian woman s clothing. In doing my research I have come across a passage in Dalby s Kimono which
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 4, 2008
      Greetings to the list!

      I am currently working on A&S worthy Heian woman's clothing. In doing
      my research I have come across a passage in Dalby's Kimono which
      states that the successive layering was properly achieved (showing the
      colours at collar/eri, sleeve, and hem) by cutting the ginu smaller as
      one works outward. I am confused by this statement as I am fairly
      certain from readings on Tousando, Master Effingham's site and
      Saionji-dono's site that this glimpse of colour is achieved not by cut
      of fabric, but through appropriate placement during dressing. Perhaps
      I am mistaken. If most if not all fabric was woven in widths of 16"
      (?), presuming a resistance to waste of fabric, placement would appear
      more accurate. As this is intended to be an A&S entry (in a kingdom
      where Japanese is seldom done and rarely well) it is of the utmost
      importance to me to be as accurate as possible. The Laurel who is
      guiding me in this endeavor is just as intrigued by the contradictory
      statements as I am. If anyone could elaborate or clarify I would be
      most grateful.

      Sugihara no Naome
    • danabren
      Personally, I cut all of my uchigi to the same measurements whenever possible. To make each layer successively smaller would negate the ability to use each
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
        Personally, I cut all of my uchigi to the same measurements whenever
        possible. To make each layer successively smaller would negate the
        ability to use each layer in more than one ensemble.

        I suggest that instead of cutting each layer smaller, you increase
        the seam allowance, thus allowing you to keep the ability to re-use
        each layer, while still allowing you to get the exacting layer effect
        for this ensemble.

        And yes, you will probably still want to tack your collars in place.

        I'd love to know who is helping you with this :)

        Kurokamakiri/Danabren
        East

        >
        > Greetings to the list!
        >
        > I am currently working on A&S worthy Heian woman's clothing. In
        doing
        > my research I have come across a passage in Dalby's Kimono which
        > states that the successive layering was properly achieved (showing
        the
        > colours at collar/eri, sleeve, and hem) by cutting the ginu smaller
        as
        > one works outward. I am confused by this statement as I am fairly
        > certain from readings on Tousando, Master Effingham's site and
        > Saionji-dono's site that this glimpse of colour is achieved not by
        cut
        > of fabric, but through appropriate placement during dressing.
        Perhaps
        > I am mistaken. If most if not all fabric was woven in widths of 16"
        > (?), presuming a resistance to waste of fabric, placement would
        appear
        > more accurate. As this is intended to be an A&S entry (in a kingdom
        > where Japanese is seldom done and rarely well) it is of the utmost
        > importance to me to be as accurate as possible. The Laurel who is
        > guiding me in this endeavor is just as intrigued by the
        contradictory
        > statements as I am. If anyone could elaborate or clarify I would be
        > most grateful.
        >
        > Sugihara no Naome
        >
      • Franzi Dickson
        ... Maybe I m misremembering, but I thought what Dalby said was that she had assumed it was achieved by cutting them smaller but discovered otherwise when she
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
          -----Original Message-----
          >From: Dawn Wilson <morningstar.dawn@...>
          >Sent: Jun 5, 2008 12:06 AM
          >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [SCA-JML] Cut of Heian ginu

          >In doing
          >my research I have come across a passage in Dalby's Kimono which
          >states that the successive layering was properly achieved (showing the
          >colours at collar/eri, sleeve, and hem) by cutting the ginu smaller as
          >one works outward. I am confused by this statement as I am fairly
          >certain from readings on Tousando, Master Effingham's site and
          >Saionji-dono's site that this glimpse of colour is achieved not by cut
          >of fabric, but through appropriate placement during dressing.

          Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought what Dalby said was that she had assumed it was achieved by cutting them smaller but discovered otherwise when she went to have her picture taken in period costume. She certainly has a description of going to one of those photography places where they make you up like a geisha or samurai (or in Heian period clothing in this case) and how they did the layering. Granted, cheesy photography places are not good historical resources, but I think Dalby agrees with you about placement vs. cut.

          --Franzi
        • JESSICA DODGE
          I had come across this awhile back as well. But after the Known World Symposium during the Women s Japanese garb class, (I honestly do not rememer the teachers
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
            I had come across this awhile back as well. But after the Known World Symposium during the Women's Japanese garb class, (I honestly do not rememer the teachers name. I only remember her credentials and the fact she was a strong authority on Historical Japanese clothing) The teacher did indicate that bottom layers WERE NOT cut smaller than top layers.

            Personally, I would think this is true. I do not see any practical Japanese Lady wasting any unnessary portion of fabric. It look ages to weave and somtimes decorations were worven in. Why would anyone waste somthing like that?

            Also, a few years ago(before the symposiom), a freind and I created what we thought was Hein at thhe time. Of course, we did the bottom layers cut smaller than top. What we found was that it could only be wron in that pattern. The Kimono color pattern layers could not be changed or worn with anything else. It simply did not look right.

            Also, an Idea that I have been playing around with for quite sometime. The color patterns used for the seasons are very similar (if not right on sometimes) to the colors used in flower arrangeing. (I forget the name) But the traditional style of color use, and what flower was in season and all that, was a huge influence on what women wore during the year. (I guess to match the gardens. Makes sense to me.)

            I apologize for not knowing my terms. And I hope I am making sense with what I do remember.

            Helena/Hotaru
            (Who should start playing a bit more and get back into the swing of things)

            Dawn Wilson <morningstar.dawn@...> wrote:
            Greetings to the list!

            I am currently working on A&S worthy Heian woman's clothing. In doing
            my research I have come across a passage in Dalby's Kimono which
            states that the successive layering was properly achieved (showing the
            colours at collar/eri, sleeve, and hem) by cutting the ginu smaller as
            one works outward. I am confused by this statement as I am fairly
            certain from readings on Tousando, Master Effingham's site and
            Saionji-dono's site that this glimpse of colour is achieved not by cut
            of fabric, but through appropriate placement during dressing. Perhaps
            I am mistaken. If most if not all fabric was woven in widths of 16"
            (?), presuming a resistance to waste of fabric, placement would appear
            more accurate. As this is intended to be an A&S entry (in a kingdom
            where Japanese is seldom done and rarely well) it is of the utmost
            importance to me to be as accurate as possible. The Laurel who is
            guiding me in this endeavor is just as intrigued by the contradictory
            statements as I am. If anyone could elaborate or clarify I would be
            most grateful.

            Sugihara no Naome







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Audrey Bergeron-Morin
            ... Yes, I remember reading that too, and I remember reading it elsewhere also (but they might have been citing Dalby, for all I know). It was a few years ago,
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
              > Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought what Dalby said was that she had assumed it was achieved by cutting them smaller but discovered otherwise when she went to have her picture taken in period costume.

              Yes, I remember reading that too, and I remember reading it elsewhere
              also (but they might have been citing Dalby, for all I know). It was a
              few years ago, though, so don't ask where that "elsewhere" was!
            • JL Badgley
              To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my sources. When I get
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
                To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence
                for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my
                sources. When I get home I will check.

                That said, the difference, if there is any, is not great as I recall,
                and seems to be mostly in the sleeves--if I'm remembering things
                correctly. And if anything, I believe it is the circumference of the
                sode (with the outer garments being maybe a centimeter or so smaller),
                but I need to check my sources.

                -Ii

                On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Audrey Bergeron-Morin
                <audreybmorin@...> wrote:
                >> Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought what Dalby said was that she had
                >> assumed it was achieved by cutting them smaller but discovered otherwise
                >> when she went to have her picture taken in period costume.
                >
                > Yes, I remember reading that too, and I remember reading it elsewhere
                > also (but they might have been citing Dalby, for all I know). It was a
                > few years ago, though, so don't ask where that "elsewhere" was!
                >
              • wodeford
                Of possible interest: http://wodefordhall.com/heian.htm And recent photos of me in karaginu mo at CostumeCon 26. Ginu are cut to the same size and I ran a
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
                  Of possible interest:
                  http://wodefordhall.com/heian.htm

                  And recent photos of me in karaginu mo at CostumeCon 26. Ginu are cut
                  to the same size and I ran a single tacking stich through the collar
                  at the back of the neck and through the top of each set of sleeves.
                  (Like lettuce on an overstuffed sandwich, my hitoe sleeves have never
                  behaved properly.)
                  http://imagecraft.smugmug.com/gallery/4902732_3mA59#P-6-9

                  Assuming internet is restored at home, I will have a look at Dalby
                  again after work.

                  Saionji no Hanae,
                  West Kingdom
                • Ellen Badgley
                  I just pulled out Jidai Ishou no Nuikata. Some thoughts: - The itsutsuginu in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata is a period cheater garment, made with one body and
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
                    I just pulled out Jidai Ishou no Nuikata. Some thoughts:

                    - The itsutsuginu in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata is a period "cheater"
                    garment, made with one body and five sets of sleeves/collars/hems.
                    For that, it would make sense that any offset, if it exists, would be
                    sewn into the garment...but from the illustration of the reconstructed
                    garment, it does not appear that there is any offset, or if there is,
                    it is very small. (That particular itsutsuginu, though, is five
                    layers of the same color, so there's less to contrast).

                    - Ii is right about there being a size difference between the inner
                    and the other layers of the *whole ensemble*: the bodies are all the
                    same size, but the sleeve widths-- and lengths-- vary. The sleeves of
                    the outer layers (uwagi and uchiginu) are about a centimeter or so
                    smaller in width than the itsutsuginu, but about 5 centimeters smaller
                    in length (I believe to help the inner layers "pooch" out and show
                    more clearly). The inner layer, the hitoe, is a good 5 centimeters
                    wider in the sleeves (and longer in the body as well), so it clearly
                    shows all around (the sleeve length here is the same as the
                    itsutsuginu).

                    I'd say any size difference depends on the type of garment. The hitoe
                    (underneath) is the biggest; the kinu used for layering (to form the
                    "heart" of the kasane) are all the same size, and any offset is
                    produced from the way they are worn; and the (uchiginu and) uwagi are
                    a little bit smaller. This makes sense: the outer and inner layers
                    will stay where they are, but the layering kinu can be reorganized
                    depending on the season.

                    - Abe Akirakeiko


                    On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:18 PM, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                    > To be a possible dissenting voice--I believe there is some evidence
                    > for this in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata--but I am in Japan and not with my
                    > sources. When I get home I will check.
                    >
                    > That said, the difference, if there is any, is not great as I recall,
                    > and seems to be mostly in the sleeves--if I'm remembering things
                    > correctly. And if anything, I believe it is the circumference of the
                    > sode (with the outer garments being maybe a centimeter or so smaller),
                    > but I need to check my sources.
                    >
                    > -Ii
                  • wodeford
                    Dalby, Kimono: Fashioning Culture, Chapter 7, p. 235 of my edition, facing the color plate of Ms. Dalby in karaginu mo: I had mistakenly thought that the
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 5, 2008
                      Dalby, Kimono: Fashioning Culture, Chapter 7, p. 235 of my edition,
                      facing the color plate of Ms. Dalby in karaginu mo:

                      "I had mistakenly thought that the robes in a set must have each been
                      cut smaller in order to reveal the edge of the one beneath, but I
                      discovered that the effect was created as each layer created more
                      bulk, and it was the skill of the dresser that made the edges lie so
                      neatly apart....."

                      p. 229, see description of hitoe "cut slightly larger than the ones
                      that came on top. The hitoe protruded prominently at the sleeve
                      openings and hem." The uchigi description repeats the fact that it's
                      the bulk of the layers that reveals the edges of the inner ones.

                      p. 230, see description of Karaginu with "relatively narrow sleeves."

                      See also Abe-hime's response regarding relative dimensions on the
                      various garments.

                      Saionji no Hanae
                      West Kingdom
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