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Re: Custom Thai Silk Site

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  • wodeford
    ... On what planet? Saionji no Hanae, who believes Dupioni translates as We don t beat our spinners enough.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Jamie Ritter <moonflake1978@...> wrote:
      >
      > Now in medieval ages the slubs were considered to show your wealth.
      On what planet?

      Saionji no Hanae, who believes "Dupioni" translates as "We don't beat
      our spinners enough."
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Oh, I suspect that slubs are quite period. However, I suspect that in period they would be thought of as a defect
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!
        > It is a nice, medium-weight silk with a fair amount of body to it.
        > However, the silk I purchased in Thailand from a manufacturer did
        > have slubs in it, which might not be period. To be honest,
        > however, I pretty much ignore that because the fabrics (and the
        > colors) are so glorious!
        Oh, I suspect that slubs are quite period. However, I suspect that in
        period they would be thought of as a defect instead of spiffy.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • squire009
        ... How would using the slubby thread be wasting it ? Wouldn t wasting it mean not using it? Alcyoneus
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Jamie Ritter <moonflake1978@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Now in medieval ages the slubs were considered to show your wealth.
          > On what planet?
          >
          > Saionji no Hanae, who believes "Dupioni" translates as "We don't beat
          > our spinners enough."
          >

          How would using the slubby thread be 'wasting it'? Wouldn't wasting it
          mean not using it?

          Alcyoneus
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! What s happening in Thailand? I am very curious. Do take care of yourselves. The Thais that I have met are quite nice.
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig! What's happening in Thailand? I am very
            curious. Do take care of yourselves. The Thais that I have met are
            quite nice.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Andrew T Trembley
            ... All the documentation I ve seen indicates that the finer and cleaner the weave of silk (regardless of period or location) the higher the percieved quality.
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
              On Jan 8, 2008, at 7:24 AM, Jamie Ritter wrote:
              > Now in medieval ages the slubs were considered to show your wealth.
              > The more slubs were considered a sign of prestigue because you
              > could afford to waste the thread and have them in your weave. I
              > don't know about Period Japanese slubs though.

              All the documentation I've seen indicates that the finer and cleaner
              the weave of silk (regardless of period or location) the higher the
              percieved quality. Old Chinese silk-production manuals always
              strongly emphasized the careful sorting of cocoons, indicating that
              single oval cocoons (which don't produce slubs) are most desirable.

              andy
            • wodeford
              ... The more slubs were considered a sign of prestigue because you could afford to waste the thread and have them in your weave. I don t know about Period
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Jamie Ritter <moonflake1978@...> wrote:
                >
                > Now in medieval ages the slubs were considered to show your wealth.
                The more slubs were considered a sign of prestigue because you could
                afford to waste the thread and have them in your weave. I don't know
                about Period Japanese slubs though.

                The following rant is being posted now that I have time to write it.
                Whoever told you this is selling you a bill of goods.

                Firstly, for those who may not know what we are talking about, what is
                a slub? Well, it's an uneven lump of fiber in yarn or thread, usually
                considered a defect. (I'm leaving out the sorts of interesting funky,
                chunky yarn that's popular for certain types of knitting projects
                these days for the purposes of our discussion). Anyone who has ever
                attempted spinning thread by hand from scratch can tell you that
                spinning smooth, even thread by hand takes practice, but is quite
                achievable.

                I don't spin, but I do know that different fibers have different
                properties and some appear to be more cooperative than others in terms
                of spinning smoothly.

                Ever buy a silk blouse with one of those little tags on it that tells
                you the imperfections in the weave are what make your garment unique?
                This is clever modern marketing, not medieval aesthetics. I'd even be
                willing to bet that the garment label says 100% silk and it'll even be
                true. Your "unique" textured garment - which, by the way, can't be all
                that unique if you bought it off a rack somewhere - is probably made
                of "raw silk" or silk noil.

                So what is silk noil? Noils are bits of crushed silkworm pupa. This,
                mixed with scrap fibers leftover from spinning into higher grade silk
                thread, is gathered and re-spun, then woven into fabric which tends to
                be non-shiny, soft, and slubby with a somewhat loose weave. In other
                words, it's the bits that weren't good enough. It sometimes even has a
                faint odor from the sticky sericin that didn't get removed from the
                fibers. It takes dye as beautifully as higher quality silks, so it's
                available in lots of colors, but it's basically cheap stuff. And if
                modern industrial machines can't spin and weave these junky fiber bits
                into smooth, even fibers, it's going to be slubby.

                Ever hear or read the word "shoddy?" We know it usually means
                something badly made or of poor quality. Know where the word comes
                from? Shoddy was originally the name of wool yarn or cloth made from
                scrap bits with new wool added in. Sounds a lot like our silk noil
                process, doesn't it?

                One needs to try thinking as if we are REALLY persons of very high
                rank as opposed to hobbyists trying do appear as such on within the
                limits of our budgets and modern materials available. The only part of
                the statement originally posted that is correct is the part about
                displaying one's wealth on one's back.

                Now, how to do that? By wearing clothing and/or ornaments of the
                highest quality available. In terms of textiles, we're talking about
                cloth woven and dyed by masters in their crafts, regardless of whether
                it's Flemish wool or Japanese silk. It certainly is not going to have
                visible imperfections in the forms of unsightly lumps all over it.

                Don't get me wrong, I like texture. I understand that we are all
                constrained by what our budgets allow and what materials are available
                in this day and age. I've used modern machine woven dupioni for some
                of my projects because it's what I can get. However, it is very
                important to keep in mind that modern aesthetics and medieval ones are
                not the same and that those "unique" imperfections in the weave would
                not have been considered quality workmanship.

                Here endeth the venting.

                Saionji no Hanae
                West
              • Andrew T Trembley
                ... Silk has properties that only modern synthetics have been available to recreate. Because an individual silk cocoon is made up of a single filament hundreds
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
                  On Jan 8, 2008, at 5:32 PM, wodeford wrote:
                  > I don't spin, but I do know that different fibers have different
                  > properties and some appear to be more cooperative than others in terms
                  > of spinning smoothly.

                  Silk has properties that only modern synthetics have been available
                  to recreate. Because an individual silk cocoon is made up of a single
                  filament hundreds of meters long, the silk "spinning" process (called
                  "throwing") is much more like twisting threads into yarn than
                  spinning fibers into thread.

                  That means it's ideal for producing fine, clean yarns for weaving.
                  It's just a matter of sorting cocoons into firsts that will produce a
                  clean, long filament and seconds that won't.

                  andy
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Saionji hime! Greetings from Solveig! I hope that you did not misunderstand my earlier posting. There are in Japan plenty of traditional ways to reuse old
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
                    Saionji hime!

                    Greetings from Solveig! I hope that you did not misunderstand my earlier
                    posting. There are in Japan plenty of traditional ways to reuse old
                    fabric
                    and otherwise make use of such things as slubby fabric. This does not
                    mean that the stuff should be preferred.

                    Lots of things which we now prefer used to be considered inferior.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • wodeford
                    ... No, not at all. I was responding to the initial assertion that slubs were considered [sic] a sign of prestige. Certainly, fabrics of lesser grades existed
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 8, 2008
                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                      wrote:
                      > Greetings from Solveig! I hope that you did not misunderstand my earlier
                      > posting.

                      No, not at all. I was responding to the initial assertion that slubs
                      were considered [sic] a sign of prestige.

                      Certainly, fabrics of lesser grades existed and had their uses (and
                      re-uses!).

                      Saionji no Hanae
                      West Kingdom
                    • Ellen Badgley
                      I am all about using wonderful high-quality silks, but does anyone other than me love the smell of the sericin in the silk noil? Rather sweet and nice, and
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 9, 2008
                        I am all about using wonderful high-quality silks, but does anyone
                        other than me love the smell of the sericin in the silk noil? Rather
                        sweet and nice, and you just don't get it with the other stuff...

                        Ah, bug spit. *sigh*

                        - Abe Akirakeiko
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