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Re: [SCA-JML] Name returned - Tsuruko

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  • Franzi Dickson
    Evidently, both tsuru and ko are attested to on that page. Ko is a standard name ending (though uncommon in period), so can t you just argue that
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 15, 2007
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      Evidently, both 'tsuru' and 'ko' are attested to on that page. 'Ko' is a standard name ending (though uncommon in period), so can't you just argue that 'tsuruko' is a viable construction on the basis of those other two names? Sorry I can't be more helpful.

      --Franzi
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You can of course simply appeal your submission to the College of Arms. Tsurako sounds like a typo to me. OK on page 387
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 15, 2007
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! You can of course simply appeal your
        submission to the College of Arms. Tsurako sounds like a typo
        to me.

        OK on page 387 of the Revised Edition. We have Tsurako which
        has nothing to do with cranes . There is also Tsurukome which
        does mean crane and has two feminine name forming suffixes.
        The second one can simply be deleted to obtain the name that
        you want.

        On page 163 of Nihon no Joseimei by Tsunoda Bun'ei
        ISBN: 4336047456 we learn that <living things>+<suffix>
        are a standard naming pattern for women of the late Kamakura
        period. So, for example, we encounter Inuko (dog+child) on
        page 167.

        I need to get ready for my afternoon class. I will see what I
        can do later on.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tsuruko@dancingcraneart.com
        I don t know if it helps the situation but my name of Murakami Tsuruko was passed by the College of Heralds back in 1986 or so. So there is some precedence.
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 17, 2007
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          I don't know if it helps the situation but my name of Murakami Tsuruko was
          passed by the College of Heralds back in 1986 or so. So there is some
          precedence.

          YIS,

          Murakami Tsuruko
          Kingdom of An Tir

          > Noble Cousin!
          >
          > Greetings from Solveig! You can of course simply appeal your
          > submission to the College of Arms. Tsurako sounds like a typo
          > to me.
          >
          > OK on page 387 of the Revised Edition. We have Tsurako which
          > has nothing to do with cranes . There is also Tsurukome which
          > does mean crane and has two feminine name forming suffixes.
          > The second one can simply be deleted to obtain the name that
          > you want.
          >
          > On page 163 of Nihon no Joseimei by Tsunoda Bun'ei
          > ISBN: 4336047456 we learn that <living things>+<suffix>
          > are a standard naming pattern for women of the late Kamakura
          > period. So, for example, we encounter Inuko (dog+child) on
          > page 167.
          >
          > I need to get ready for my afternoon class. I will see what I
          > can do later on.
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • sigrune@aol.com
          ... Unfortuneatly an item being registered already does not provide the correct kind of precedence to pass a name again. ... As an Atlantian herald yes I do,
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 17, 2007
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            tsuruko@... writes:

            >I don't know if it helps the situation but my name of
            >Murakami Tsuruko was passed by the College of Heralds
            >back in 1986 or so.  So there is some precedence.

            Unfortuneatly an item being registered already does not provide the correct kind of precedence to pass a name again.

            Mara:
            >The CoH of Atlantia returned my proposed name of
            >Tsuruko Akamatsu because (it is) Tsuruko that appears
            >as a historical feminine name of the page 385 of "Name
            >Construction in Medieval Japan"

            >Does anyone have the time and resources to help me get
            >this name to pass in Atlantia?

            As an Atlantian herald yes I do, (sorry was away from my email for a while) and one who focuses on Japanese heraldry no less.

            Looking at the kanji it does not appear to be a typo as solveig suggests in her response. There is a tsurukome, but it uses the kanji Tsuru (crane) and kome (lady)
            Tsurako however uses the kanji Tsura/Michi (big road) and ko (lady)

            I will be happy to discuss it with you and help you resubmit (or if nessisary talk to your original submitting herald)

            But here is the basics for the resubmittal:
            A. Do not unwittingly check either the box for "correct to language/culture" or "time period" this can cause a real pain in the backside in getting it passed cleanly.

            B. Show the documentation for both Tsurako and Tsurukome on page 130(revised) and 174(rev) respectively the second kanji of both names ko (child) are identical, also show/point out documentation on pageand pages 46-49 specifically talking about the construction of Feminine names and the useages of -me, -hime, -ko, -akome and how their usages varied by time. By the guidelines of construction that Solvieg outlines, by taking the kanji Tsuru and -ko from the name Tsurukome, and dropping the final element -me, results in a name that is in agreement with the principals and spirit of medieval japanese feminine names.

            If you have further questions, or your herald does, feel free to contact me, or have your herald do so.

            -Takeda Akimasa (also current "chief herald" for the USJRS)
            sigrune@...
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Actually, I was speculating not about Tsuruko, but Tsurako. It turns out that Tsurako is not a typo and has nothing
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 18, 2007
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!
              > Looking at the kanji it does not appear to be a typo as solveig
              > suggests in her response. There is a tsurukome, but it uses the
              > kanji Tsuru (crane) and kome (lady)
              Actually, I was speculating not about Tsuruko, but Tsurako. It turns
              out that Tsurako is not a typo and has nothing at all to do with cranes.
              > A. Do not unwittingly check either the box for "correct to language/
              > culture" or "time period" this can cause a real pain in the
              > backside in getting it passed cleanly.
              >
              > B. Show the documentation for both Tsurako and Tsurukome on page 130
              > (revised) and 174(rev) respectively the second kanji of both names
              > ko (child) are identical, also show/point out documentation on
              > pageand pages 46-49 specifically talking about the construction of
              > Feminine names and the useages of -me, -hime, -ko, -akome and how
              > their usages varied by time. By the guidelines of construction that
              > Solvieg outlines, by taking the kanji Tsuru and -ko from the name
              > Tsurukome, and dropping the final element -me, results in a name
              > that is in agreement with the principals and spirit of medieval
              > japanese feminine names.
              Actually, you should also find one of the names with an <animal>+ko
              pattern. Also, it turns out that my most recent book order shipped a
              couple of days ago, and it includes a dictionary of Feminine Japanese
              names. So, I may be able to simply look up Tsuruko in a week or two.

              I will, however, tell you about a problem at the CoA level. At least
              one member of the CoA is resisting constructed Japanese names. He is
              insisting that each name appear exactly as submitted in some register
              or other. This is a fairly clueless approach to Japanese names, but I
              can't do much more than argue against his point of view.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rich Goble
              Ok... I m new to the SCA (and therefore possibly painting a target on myself for suggesting this), but isn t there some way to educate the individual(s) on the
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 18, 2007
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                Ok... I'm new to the SCA (and therefore possibly painting a target on myself for suggesting this), but isn't there some way to educate the individual(s) on the CoA level so that they're working with the proper information? Correcting the individual(s) would be beneficial to all of us, thereby (in my opinion) worth the effort...

                - Rich


                Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!
                > Looking at the kanji it does not appear to be a typo as solveig
                > suggests in her response. There is a tsurukome, but it uses the
                > kanji Tsuru (crane) and kome (lady)
                Actually, I was speculating not about Tsuruko, but Tsurako. It turns
                out that Tsurako is not a typo and has nothing at all to do with cranes.
                > A. Do not unwittingly check either the box for "correct to language/
                > culture" or "time period" this can cause a real pain in the
                > backside in getting it passed cleanly.
                >
                > B. Show the documentation for both Tsurako and Tsurukome on page 130
                > (revised) and 174(rev) respectively the second kanji of both names
                > ko (child) are identical, also show/point out documentation on
                > pageand pages 46-49 specifically talking about the construction of
                > Feminine names and the useages of -me, -hime, -ko, -akome and how
                > their usages varied by time. By the guidelines of construction that
                > Solvieg outlines, by taking the kanji Tsuru and -ko from the name
                > Tsurukome, and dropping the final element -me, results in a name
                > that is in agreement with the principals and spirit of medieval
                > japanese feminine names.
                Actually, you should also find one of the names with an <animal>+ko
                pattern. Also, it turns out that my most recent book order shipped a
                couple of days ago, and it includes a dictionary of Feminine Japanese
                names. So, I may be able to simply look up Tsuruko in a week or two.

                I will, however, tell you about a problem at the CoA level. At least
                one member of the CoA is resisting constructed Japanese names. He is
                insisting that each name appear exactly as submitted in some register
                or other. This is a fairly clueless approach to Japanese names, but I
                can't do much more than argue against his point of view.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sigrune@aol.com
                ... Thank you for the clarification you know what is there and how it is supposed to be far better than the rest of us. :) And of course, you said it more
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 18, 2007
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                  Solvieg writes:
                  >Actually, I was speculating...about...Tsurako.
                  >It turns out that Tsurako is not a typo and has
                  >nothing at all to do with cranes.

                  Thank you for the clarification you know what is there and how it is supposed to be far better than the rest of us. :)
                  And of course, you said it more clearlythan my attempt.

                  >I will, however, tell you about a problem at the CoA
                  >level. At least one member of the CoA is resisting
                  >constructed Japanese names. He is insisting that each
                  >name appear exactly as submitted in some register
                  >or other.

                  Interesting to know, not being on the SCA wide CoH commentary list, but only on a couple of kingdom level ones, I was not aware of this. While I generally prefer and try to guide people to take a documentable name, there is a place for constructed elements providing they follow the principles of constructing said names. Though I suppose I shouldn't realy even claim that, being my own name is a construction itself, and a bit of an odd-ball one at that, especailly if you see the kanji I use... (mainly because my caligraphy is so horrible the mroe complex ones I should be using would be so horribly mangled they would be illegible blotches.

                  So that being said I have been giving thought about changing my name to something wholly documentable, simply because it is my belief that we should realy try when able to portray/reenact/recreate in the manner as I define it stereotypical/prototypical... We should be looking at the more common, the more munande, the more "normal" not the one-off's and exeptions.

                  If there was one helmet or armor of a given type or style, while it might be cool, why make that one for SCA use? If you can find a single example of that form of name for a given period (because the hisotrical individual in questions was either an eccentric or an anachrnoist back then) why use that one? IN these instances we are not showing what it was like, but the exceptions to what it was like... my opinion this is not a good trend.

                  I do not think that trying to get Tsuruko documented well enough to pass is a challenge, nor does it fit my basis for objection above, Tsuruko seems plausable and common enough to construction practices. I am sure if we did either enough digging or looked in the right places we could find documentation. I however am limited in my ability by not being able to read Japanese, or at least not well.

                  -Takeda
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