Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-JML] Japanese fealty ceremonies/acknowledgement

Expand Messages
  • Elaine Koogler
    The one I have is an aikuchi. To be honest, I didn t know about the hamidatsu. All of the sources I had at the time only mentioned the aikuchi. Kiri ... --
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      The one I have is an aikuchi. To be honest, I didn't know about the
      hamidatsu. All of the sources I had at the time only mentioned the aikuchi.

      Kiri

      David Nesmith wrote:
      >
      > Hamidatsu or aikuchi?
      >
      > The hamidatsu I've seen was actually sold on a bonsai site several
      > years ago. They thought it was for bonsai cutting. Turned out that it
      > was a hamidatsu over 400 years old!
      >
      > Moritake
      >
      > Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@...
      > <mailto:ekoogler1%40comcast.net>> wrote: Yeah...I have one, but had to
      > have it made. And I was a very long time
      > finding someone who could make what I was looking for. Probably nowadays
      > you could take a picture of one to a good swordsmith, of which we have a
      > number in the SCA, and they could fabricate at least a good
      > representation of one.
      >
      > Kiri
      >
      > David Nesmith wrote:
      > >
      > > An appropriate gift to a trusted female retainer would be a tanto
      > > perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu
      > > (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman's tanto. They are rather rare to
      > > find these days, I have only seen one.
      > >
      > > Happy hunting,
      > > Ishikawa Moritake
      > >
      > > Solveig Throndardottir >
      > > wrote: Noble Cousins!
      > >
      > > Greetings from Solveig!
      > >
      > > > For those of the fighting arts:
      > > > I would have them called into my headquarters, acknowledge them as
      > > > samurai, if appropriate offer them use of a name element, and
      > > > provide them with equipment or sword. Very light on "proper" ceremony.
      > >
      > > Not that movies are documentation, but this is what Kurosawa depicts
      > > in his version of Macbeth.
      > > Annual gifts of cloth for uniforms are appropriate from any lord to
      > > any vassal.
      > >
      > > Your Humble Servant
      > > Solveig Throndardottir
      > > Amateur Scholar
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood.
      > > Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!
      > >
      > > test'; " type=text/css>
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone
      > > who knows.
      > > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      >
      > Elaine Koogler
      > Consultant
      >
      > Dragon's Lair Enterprises
      >
      > Learning is a lifetime journey…growing older merely adds experience to
      > knowledge and wisdom to curiosity.
      > -- C.E. Lawrence
      >
      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:sca-jml-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood.
      > Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!
      >
      > test'; " type=text/css>
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
      > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      --

      Elaine Koogler
      Consultant

      Dragon's Lair Enterprises

      Learning is a lifetime journey…growing older merely adds experience to
      knowledge and wisdom to curiosity.
      -- C.E. Lawrence
    • C. Kevin Kellogg
      ... perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman s tanto. They are rather rare to find these
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
        >
        > An appropriate gift to a trusted female retainer would be a tanto
        perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu
        (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman's tanto. They are rather rare
        to find these days, I have only seen one.


        As I am teaching her fencing, I am considering the alchem tanto as a
        gift. It's more a matter of budget than anything. Are there any
        people here fighting rapier as a japanese persona?

        As to the tea ceremony, my retainer was looking for a way to show her
        gratitude for the help of my wife and I have given her.

        If you could point me to information on sake ceremonies, I'd be
        interested.

        Avenel
      • lawrence warnock
        I fight as a nan bam Portuguese. I am about to go native . My sword and dagger scabbard is already tied together as apposed to european style. Miguel Neves de
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I fight as a nan bam Portuguese. I am about to "go native". My sword and dagger scabbard is already tied together as apposed to european style.
          Miguel Neves de Lisboa
          "Megueru"


          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.comFrom: avenel@...: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:27:11 +0000Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Japanese fealty ceremonies/acknowledgement




          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:>> An appropriate gift to a trusted female retainer would be a tanto perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman's tanto. They are rather rare to find these days, I have only seen one.As I am teaching her fencing, I am considering the alchem tanto as a gift. It's more a matter of budget than anything. Are there any people here fighting rapier as a japanese persona?As to the tea ceremony, my retainer was looking for a way to show her gratitude for the help of my wife and I have given her. If you could point me to information on sake ceremonies, I'd be interested.Avenel






          _________________________________________________________________
          Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
          http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lawrence warnock
          I fight as a nan bam Portuguese. I am about to go native . My sword and dagger scabbard is already tied together as apposed to european style. Miguel Neves de
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            I fight as a nan bam Portuguese. I am about to "go native". My sword and dagger scabbard is already tied together as apposed to european style.
            Miguel Neves de Lisboa
            "Megueru"


            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.comFrom: avenel@...: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:27:11 +0000Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Japanese fealty ceremonies/acknowledgement




            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:>> An appropriate gift to a trusted female retainer would be a tanto perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman's tanto. They are rather rare to find these days, I have only seen one.As I am teaching her fencing, I am considering the alchem tanto as a gift. It's more a matter of budget than anything. Are there any people here fighting rapier as a japanese persona?As to the tea ceremony, my retainer was looking for a way to show her gratitude for the help of my wife and I have given her. If you could point me to information on sake ceremonies, I'd be interested.Avenel






            _________________________________________________________________
            News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now!
            http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jamie Ritter
            I am fencing with a japanese persona. ... perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman s tanto.
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I am fencing with a japanese persona.

              "C. Kevin Kellogg" <avenel@...> wrote: --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
              >
              > An appropriate gift to a trusted female retainer would be a tanto
              perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu
              (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman's tanto. They are rather rare
              to find these days, I have only seen one.

              As I am teaching her fencing, I am considering the alchem tanto as a
              gift. It's more a matter of budget than anything. Are there any
              people here fighting rapier as a japanese persona?

              As to the tea ceremony, my retainer was looking for a way to show her
              gratitude for the help of my wife and I have given her.

              If you could point me to information on sake ceremonies, I'd be
              interested.

              Avenel






              I've got a firm grip on reality, now I can strangle it!!
              Lady Fuyutsukime Hattori
              (Hattori Fuyutsukime) mka
              Jamie Ritter


              ---------------------------------
              Got a little couch potato?
              Check out fun summer activities for kids.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ashina no Karasu
              I am a Japanese rapier fighter and heavy fighter as well. Did you have any specific questions? Ashina no Karasu ... [Non-text portions of this message have
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I am a Japanese rapier fighter and heavy fighter as well. Did you have any
                specific questions?

                Ashina no Karasu

                On 9/27/07, C. Kevin Kellogg <avenel@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com <sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com>, David
                > Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > An appropriate gift to a trusted female retainer would be a tanto
                > perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu
                > (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman's tanto. They are rather rare
                > to find these days, I have only seen one.
                >
                > As I am teaching her fencing, I am considering the alchem tanto as a
                > gift. It's more a matter of budget than anything. Are there any
                > people here fighting rapier as a japanese persona?
                >
                > As to the tea ceremony, my retainer was looking for a way to show her
                > gratitude for the help of my wife and I have given her.
                >
                > If you could point me to information on sake ceremonies, I'd be
                > interested.
                >
                > Avenel
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • gabriel_andvaka
                Hello there, I know little about aikuchi, and less about kwaiken, but there are modern production sword makers that make them. http://www.shadowofleaves.com
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello there,

                  I know little about aikuchi, and less about kwaiken, but there are
                  modern production sword makers that make them.
                  http://www.shadowofleaves.com sells some modern ones in their Citadel
                  line. I do not know anything about the historical accuracy of such.

                  http://www.shadowofleaves.com/citadel.htm

                  Gabriel

                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > An appropriate gift to a trusted female retainer would be a tanto
                  perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu
                  (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman's tanto. They are rather rare
                  to find these days, I have only seen one.
                  >
                  > Happy hunting,
                  > Ishikawa Moritake
                  >
                • C. Kevin Kellogg
                  ... have any ... Are you using the Alcem rapier katana? If so, what are it s handling characteristics? Avenel
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ashina no Karasu"
                    <Ashina.no.karasu@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am a Japanese rapier fighter and heavy fighter as well. Did you
                    have any
                    > specific questions?

                    Are you using the Alcem rapier katana? If so, what are it's handling
                    characteristics?

                    Avenel
                  • David Nesmith
                    The short answer is yes, they are historically accurate. The relatively plain black saya is late period because of sumptuary laws of the court but many
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The short answer is yes, they are historically accurate. The relatively plain black saya is late period because of sumptuary laws of the court but many samurai took liberties with their tanto anyway. It was about the only place they could display their wealth and status without being too austentatious.

                      In the tanto category there are 3 basic styles of koshirae. Tanto had a small tsuba. The hamidashi had an even smaller one that was so small, the holes for the kozuka and kogai were little more than notches on the edge. The aikuchi has no tsuba at all. Instead, the fuchi and koiguchi meet or even overlap one another. They were simply large utility knives.

                      Kwaiken means literally "small blade" and are what we would think of as a true utility knife. Both sexes often carried them in their sleeves, women more often than men. The hamidatsu is a specialized ladies knife. The one I've seen has a blade that resembles a straight razor, square at the tip.

                      Note to all, NO tanto EVER had a kissaki that was ground with the straight angle seen on the so-called "ninja-to!" Also note, there was never any sword known as a ninja-to. That is strictly an invention of Hollywood.

                      humble kenjutsu student
                      Ishikawa Moritake
                      Min Ryu Shinto Ryu


                      gabriel_andvaka <andvaka_lists@...> wrote: Hello there,

                      I know little about aikuchi, and less about kwaiken, but there are
                      modern production sword makers that make them.
                      http://www.shadowofleaves.com sells some modern ones in their Citadel
                      line. I do not know anything about the historical accuracy of such.

                      http://www.shadowofleaves.com/citadel.htm

                      Gabriel

                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > An appropriate gift to a trusted female retainer would be a tanto
                      perferrably an aikuchi. Ideally, if you can find one, the hamidatsu
                      (or kwaiken) is the traditional woman's tanto. They are rather rare
                      to find these days, I have only seen one.
                      >
                      > Happy hunting,
                      > Ishikawa Moritake
                      >






                      It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood. Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!

                      test'; " type=text/css>


                      ---------------------------------
                      Got a little couch potato?
                      Check out fun summer activities for kids.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ashina no Karasu
                      unfortunately I am not. I wasn t really using a full japanese fighting style since I learned western olympic fencing before any eastern sword arts. I am
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 27, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        unfortunately I am not. I wasn't really using a full japanese fighting
                        style since I learned western olympic fencing before any eastern sword
                        arts. I am actually using a hanwei for now.

                        Ashina

                        On 9/27/07, C. Kevin Kellogg <avenel@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com <sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ashina no
                        > Karasu"
                        > <Ashina.no.karasu@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I am a Japanese rapier fighter and heavy fighter as well. Did you
                        > have any
                        > > specific questions?
                        >
                        > Are you using the Alcem rapier katana? If so, what are it's handling
                        > characteristics?
                        >
                        > Avenel
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jamie Ritter
                        See, I was lucky to have studied japanese Bushido before fencing. However it doesn t transfer overly well. Which is why I am looking to get in to Cut and
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 28, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          See, I was lucky to have studied japanese Bushido before fencing. However it doesn't transfer overly well. Which is why I am looking to get in to Cut and thrust.

                          Ashina no Karasu <Ashina.no.karasu@...> wrote: unfortunately I am not. I wasn't really using a full japanese fighting
                          style since I learned western olympic fencing before any eastern sword
                          arts. I am actually using a hanwei for now.

                          Ashina

                          On 9/27/07, C. Kevin Kellogg <avenel@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com <sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ashina no
                          > Karasu"
                          > <Ashina.no.karasu@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I am a Japanese rapier fighter and heavy fighter as well. Did you
                          > have any
                          > > specific questions?
                          >
                          > Are you using the Alcem rapier katana? If so, what are it's handling
                          > characteristics?
                          >
                          > Avenel
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          I've got a firm grip on reality, now I can strangle it!!
                          Lady Fuyutsukime Hattori
                          (Hattori Fuyutsukime) mka
                          Jamie Ritter


                          ---------------------------------
                          Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Anthony Bryant
                          ... Ummm... Bushido is a philosophy. Fencing is a sport. Don t see the connection. Effingham
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 28, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Sep 28, 2007, at 10:22 AM, Jamie Ritter wrote:

                            > See, I was lucky to have studied japanese Bushido before fencing.
                            > However it doesn't transfer overly well. Which is why I am looking
                            > to get in to Cut and thrust.
                            >
                            Ummm... Bushido is a philosophy. Fencing is a sport. Don't see the
                            connection.


                            Effingham
                          • Jamie Ritter
                            sorry, lack of sleep. Anthony Bryant wrote: ... Ummm... Bushido is a philosophy. Fencing is a sport. Don t see the connection.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 28, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              sorry, lack of sleep.

                              Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
                              On Sep 28, 2007, at 10:22 AM, Jamie Ritter wrote:

                              > See, I was lucky to have studied japanese Bushido before fencing.
                              > However it doesn't transfer overly well. Which is why I am looking
                              > to get in to Cut and thrust.
                              >
                              Ummm... Bushido is a philosophy. Fencing is a sport. Don't see the
                              connection.

                              Effingham






                              I've got a firm grip on reality, now I can strangle it!!
                              Lady Fuyutsukime Hattori
                              (Hattori Fuyutsukime) mka
                              Jamie Ritter


                              ---------------------------------
                              Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Brook West
                              ... years ago. They thought it was for bonsai cutting. Turned out that it was a hamidatsu over 400 years old! How does a hamidatsu differ from an aikuchi? I
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 29, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                                > Hamidatsu or aikuchi?
                                > The hamidatsu I've seen was actually sold on a bonsai site several
                                years ago. They thought it was for bonsai cutting. Turned out that
                                it was a hamidatsu over 400 years old!

                                How does a hamidatsu differ from an aikuchi? I ran a google search on
                                hamidatsu, but the only thing to turn up was this thread.

                                Thanks -- Kumao
                              • David Nesmith
                                I spoke to my sensei in class today. He happens to own the one that was called a bonsai cutter. It has been appraised as having been made in the late
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 30, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I spoke to my sensei in class today. He happens to own the one that was called a "bonsai cutter." It has been appraised as having been made in the late 1500's or early 1600's. It may take a few days for him to get photos of it, but I will attempt to describe it.
                                  A hamidatsu has a straight blade approximately 4" in length and has a full temper rather than the usual differential clay temper. It is ground on only one side like a kozuka, The kissaki is ground at a reverse angle so that the ha (edge) goes straight to the tip with no curve whatsoever. (ie: the pointy end is at the edge rather than at the back as the rest of the tanto varieties) So far, that would make it extremely easy for any blade maker to fabricate. The tricky part is that most hamidatsu have ornate horimono (engraving) on the side with the bevel edge. The koshirae can be as simple or as ornate as one's station, status or money allows.
                                  For an inexpensive substitute one might wish to take a patch knife and refit it with appropriate koshirae.

                                  your humble old timer,
                                  Ishikawa Moritake
                                  Min Ryu Shinto Ryu


                                  I will try to post some photos when available.

                                  Brook West <kitsune@...> wrote: --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                                  > Hamidatsu or aikuchi?
                                  > The hamidatsu I've seen was actually sold on a bonsai site several
                                  years ago. They thought it was for bonsai cutting. Turned out that
                                  it was a hamidatsu over 400 years old!

                                  How does a hamidatsu differ from an aikuchi? I ran a google search on
                                  hamidatsu, but the only thing to turn up was this thread.

                                  Thanks -- Kumao






                                  It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood. Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!

                                  test'; " type=text/css>


                                  ---------------------------------
                                  Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.