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Re: [SCA-JML] mis-information?

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  • sigrune@aol.com
    ... Clarification: generalizing that spearmen were generally the lowest paid of troop types prior to 1615) ... I personally feel that my original statement:
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 7, 2007
      Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> writes:

      >Takeda, I think it was, was generalizing
      >all use prior to 1615.
      Clarification: generalizing that spearmen were generally the lowest paid of troop types prior to 1615)

      >Considering that pre 1615 includes Japanese
      >implementations of classical Chinese armies,
      >I am unwilling to buy into the generalization.

      I personally feel that my original statement: that spear (and polearm troops) prior to 1615, including the Jomon and Nara periods were generally the lowest paid of all troop types, and that it is not until the Edo period in the 1700's that spearmen came to rate a premier pay position. I feel my statement holds true for any time prior to 1615, and if there are exceptions it would be of either extremely talented individuals (hired as spear instructors, which would not be a basic troop type) or people who used spears but were being paid more for societal rank, (again not a basic troop type)

      >Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.

      I agree, modernly a naginata is not a spear.
      Yari and naginata are polearms (arms having a pole) and will leave it at that.

      >There was little if any specific mention of them
      >either in the subject line or in the general discussion.
      >The message which started this discussion reads:
      >"Is it true in period that spearmen were paid
      >more than swordsmen?"

      And that is what I based my answer on... "In period", "spearmen", "swordsmen"; there is no mention of societal class. If you are going to critisize my answers please make sure you truly read the question and my answer, since it addressed each part of the question seperately.

      -Takeda
    • sigrune@aol.com
      ... Lady Solvieg, I do appologize if my last reply causes any offence to you, I replyed in the tone I took from your post, which was not the best thing for me
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 7, 2007
        Solvieg writes:

        >Considering that pre 1615 includes Japanese implementations
        >of classical Chinese armies, I am unwilling to buy into the
        >generalization.

        Lady Solvieg,
        I do appologize if my last reply causes any offence to you, I replyed in the tone I took from your post, which was not the best thing for me to do.

        I would like to inquiry you about your above statement, in my own readings the ancient Imperial armies, based on the Chinese model had the largest portion of the ranks made of spearmen, though heavily supllimented by swordsmen. (and in that time, ones who may or were equiped with shields) Have you seen any evidence that the spearmen of the rank and file were higher paid, or of higher status that the swordsmen of the rank and file in those units? I have not seen such in my reading and research, though there is little that I have read that specifically talks about wages or recompense, either directly or by compairison of those of the rank and file in the early Imperial armies.

        Thanks,
        -Takeda
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The point I made in the posting to which you responded is that generalizing for all Japanese armies prior to 1615 is
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 7, 2007
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!
          > I would like to inquiry you about your above statement, in my own
          > readings the ancient Imperial armies, based on the Chinese model
          > had the largest portion of the ranks made of spearmen, though
          > heavily supllimented by swordsmen. (and in that time, ones who may
          > or were equiped with shields) Have you seen any evidence that the
          > spearmen of the rank and file were higher paid, or of higher status
          > that the swordsmen of the rank and file in those units? I have not
          > seen such in my reading and research, though there is little that I
          > have read that specifically talks about wages or recompense, either
          > directly or by compairison of those of the rank and file in the
          > early Imperial armies.
          The point I made in the posting to which you responded is that
          generalizing for all Japanese armies prior to 1615 is at best a huge
          leap of faith. During that period of time, the Japanese had a number
          of societal, governmental, and military systems. Earlier, someone
          objected to my mentioning Atsumori, but the problem is that simply
          saying pre 1615 allows not only for Atsumori, but the earlier Chinese-
          style armies which includes troops best attested to by the famous
          terra-cotta figures.

          Regardless, a bushi who has only a sword is poorly equipped.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar





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        • James Eckman
          Posted by: Solveig Throndardottir ... Because bonito is one of it s other popular names. The problem with using popular versus scientific names. ... Since it
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
            Posted by: "Solveig Throndardottir"
            > Lots of people insist on translating "mochi" as "rice cake" and "katsuo"
            > as "bonito" even though "rice cake" conjures up a completely
            > different image and "katsuo" is really a skipjack (if I am recalling
            > the fish correctly).

            Because bonito is one of it's other popular names. The problem with
            using popular versus scientific names.

            > Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.

            Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets called a
            halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?

            Jim Eckman
          • Date Saburou Yukiie
            My dear Solvieg-hime - you know I love you as a member of the family, and as a scholar...but we should focus on things war-like, or not... The warriors of this
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
              My dear Solvieg-hime - you know I love you as a member of the family, and as a
              scholar...but we should focus on things war-like, or not...
              The warriors of this group have a lexicon, and a valued set of rules and postulates...
              Your understanding of things Japanese is wonderful - but your focus is broad...
              Those of us who refine our search for understanding into more finite terms, may (or may
              not, as it were) have a view that encompasses a better outlook.
              You, my dear, are not a soldier, nor could you ever be. You are too sweet. I would not even
              like to see you don the garb of a soldier, nor would I hope to see you wear the clothes of
              one who studies such.
              When you step into the discussions of soldiers, you do not nec. have a soldiers point of
              view.
              We love you and your skill at research...but it is not the research of a soldier.
              Date, your Clan brother...with all love and respect...


              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:
              >
              > Posted by: "Solveig Throndardottir"
              > > Lots of people insist on translating "mochi" as "rice cake" and "katsuo"
              > > as "bonito" even though "rice cake" conjures up a completely
              > > different image and "katsuo" is really a skipjack (if I am recalling
              > > the fish correctly).
              >
              > Because bonito is one of it's other popular names. The problem with
              > using popular versus scientific names.
              >
              > > Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.
              >
              > Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets called a
              > halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?
              >
              > Jim Eckman
              >
            • Park McKellop
              James Eckman wrote: Regardless, a naginata really isn t a spear. Since it really doesn t have a
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
                James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote: > Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.

                Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets called a
                halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?

                Jame Eckman
                Glaive works pretty well.
                Alcyoneus








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              • wodeford
                ... Big Pointy Thing On A Stick.... There. I ll go back to being decorative now. ;-D Saionji no Hanae West
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop <squire009@...> wrote:
                  > Glaive works pretty well.
                  > Alcyoneus

                  Big Pointy Thing On A Stick....

                  There. I'll go back to being decorative now. ;-D

                  Saionji no Hanae
                  West
                • Park McKellop
                  In German, that would be Bigpointythingonastick. ;) Alcyoneus the Mostly Decorative Or not. ;) ... Big Pointy Thing On A Stick.... There. I ll go back to being
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
                    In German, that would be Bigpointythingonastick.

                    ;)

                    Alcyoneus the Mostly Decorative

                    Or not. ;)

                    wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop <squire009@...> wrote:
                    > Glaive works pretty well.
                    > Alcyoneus

                    Big Pointy Thing On A Stick....

                    There. I'll go back to being decorative now. ;-D

                    Saionji no Hanae
                    West






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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James Eckman
                    ... True, I will use that word as the Western equivalent. Or bigpointythingonastick ;) Jim Eckman
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 9, 2007
                      > Posted by: "Park McKellop"
                      > Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets called a
                      > halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?
                      >
                      > Glaive works pretty well.
                      > Alcyoneus

                      True, I will use that word as the Western equivalent. Or
                      bigpointythingonastick ;)

                      Jim Eckman
                    • chasrmartin
                      ... called a ... Glaive. - Mugyo
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 10, 2007
                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Posted by: "Park McKellop"
                        > > Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets
                        called a
                        > > halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?
                        > >
                        > > Glaive works pretty well.
                        > > Alcyoneus
                        >
                        > True, I will use that word as the Western equivalent. Or
                        > bigpointythingonastick ;)

                        Glaive.

                        - Mugyo
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