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ladies undergarments

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  • rosenau5
    Hello, I m new to the list and just wrote a long email with alot of questions that I think I lost, so if this comes throught twice my apologies. I ve been
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 4, 2007
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      Hello,
      I'm new to the list and just wrote a long email with alot of
      questions that I think I lost, so if this comes throught twice my
      apologies.
      I've been reading some of the old messages and all the working
      links from the FAQ but I still have some questions about body
      linens, ie the very first layer next to the skin, for a woman who
      could afford such undergarments. I have white linen from other
      projects, all the Folkwear patterns for Japanese garments except the
      coat(?) one that is relatively new and am okay with rectangular
      construction and drafing my own patterns. Does the first layer
      undergarment have a specific name? How wide was Japanese linen?
      I'm assuming less wide than what I have on hand so I'll cut it down
      and finish the edges. Once I have my pretend selvedges how do I
      seam them together? I can see right sides together with a running
      stitch or a back stitch, whip stitching the edges so they abut or
      using a decorative insertion (faggotting?) stitch? Which one is
      correct? I also assume (I know, bad idea to assume) that body linen
      was not taken apart, washed and stretched like decorated silks so
      the seams could be more secure to take the wear of being worn next
      to the skin. How long is the undergarment if it's worn under
      walking length hakama or alone or a wrap skirt? Does it need as
      wide an overlap/underlap as a furosode? How are the sleeves
      shaped? Are the sleeves open at the wrist end? Are they open at
      the bottom or are they attached to the side all the way down?
      Which class is hakama appropriate underclothing for women? Were
      they always red? Were either garments supposed to show when you
      were dressed to go out?
      I'm looking at a married, middle-aged woman with living children
      presentation but I'm not set on a class or rank yet. The idea of
      hakama as underwear appeals to me on a personal leve but that is
      just whimsy, not a necessity for my persona development.
      I was also gifted a box of Kona Bay cottons. I know they are
      quilting cottons and cotton was expensive in period but they are
      pretty and not all of them are on black. Some of the flowers and
      koi are huge. I have one that the koi are a full foot long. Did
      the Japanese do any applique in period? Just a thought for a little
      later in the wardrobe development.
      I'm on digest so if anyone wants to answer directly they can. I
      have an entire day to sew tomorrow so I'll check the list homepage
      tomorrow before I start and hopefully have my cutting out done by
      the end of the day. My mom always said to start the day wearing
      clean underwear. I don't think she meant for me to make my own...
      but it does give me a chance to experiment. :)
      Thanks for any and all help.
      Cheers
      Cassandra
    • wodeford
      ... It s called a kosode. The kosode eventually evolves from an undergarment into an outer garment by becoming longer and more decorated. While I have no
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 4, 2007
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "rosenau5" <rosenau5@...> wrote:
        > I've been reading some of the old messages and all the working
        > links from the FAQ but I still have some questions about body
        > linens, ie the very first layer next to the skin, for a woman who
        > could afford such undergarments.

        It's called a kosode. The kosode eventually evolves from an
        undergarment into an outer garment by becoming longer and more decorated.

        While I have no documentation of how far back other undergarments go
        because they are not mentioned in court diaries, kosode are definitely
        mentioned in this context. It was considered the height of intimacy to
        trade kosode with a lover.

        Re the Folkwear patterns, they are based on kimono worn well after the
        SCA period. You might want to have a look at my web page to see what
        the differences are. http://www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm

        The Japanese did not have flax linen in our period, but they did have
        hemp which has similar properties. Period fabrics averaged about 16 to
        17" in width. (Modern kimono are more like 14", which is why you may
        have to tinker with Folkwear's measurements to get a period silhouette).

        > Once I have my pretend selvedges how do I
        > seam them together?

        I use a running stitch, then fold the raw edges of the seam in against
        each other and whip stitch them together. This is not "correct" as
        Japanese textiles would not have required the seam finish, but it
        works well with fabrics that do require a seam finish to prevent
        ravelling.

        > How long is the undergarment if it's worn under
        > walking length hakama or alone or a wrap skirt? Does it need as
        > wide an overlap/underlap as a furosode?
        Furisode do not exist until after our period. Make your undergarment
        kosode ankle length. Make the overlap. Make the sleeves the exact same
        size as the sleeves of whatever you're going to wear over it.

        Sleeve shape, size and attachment for period kosode is discussed at my
        web page.

        > Which class is hakama appropriate underclothing for women? Were
        > they always red? Were either garments supposed to show when you
        > were dressed to go out?
        Nagabakama were worn by the nobility. They were most often red, but
        could sometimes be darker colors. If you look at these images from the
        Kyoto Costume Museum, they definitely are visible - and are supposed
        to be.
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/images/15-a.gif (white over dark
        brown or black)
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/images/19-a.gif (classic red)
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/wayo_img/12-a.gif (burgundy)

        While I cannot document anything specifically, I will tell you that
        there is no problem in Japanese dress that cannot be solved by a
        random strip of fabric. Belly bands were used for support during
        pregnancy - and one sometimes sees belly wrapping for warmth on men. I
        suppose one could make a case for using a similar wrapping for breast
        support, if needed, but I can't confirm it.

        Hope this gets you started.

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom


        > I'm looking at a married, middle-aged woman with living children
        > presentation but I'm not set on a class or rank yet. The idea of
        > hakama as underwear appeals to me on a personal leve but that is
        > just whimsy, not a necessity for my persona development.
        > I was also gifted a box of Kona Bay cottons. I know they are
        > quilting cottons and cotton was expensive in period but they are
        > pretty and not all of them are on black. Some of the flowers and
        > koi are huge. I have one that the koi are a full foot long. Did
        > the Japanese do any applique in period? Just a thought for a little
        > later in the wardrobe development.
        > I'm on digest so if anyone wants to answer directly they can. I
        > have an entire day to sew tomorrow so I'll check the list homepage
        > tomorrow before I start and hopefully have my cutting out done by
        > the end of the day. My mom always said to start the day wearing
        > clean underwear. I don't think she meant for me to make my own...
        > but it does give me a chance to experiment. :)
        > Thanks for any and all help.
        > Cheers
        > Cassandra
        >
      • JL Badgley
        ... I think the decoration came first--there are some very decorative kosode that I have seen--for some of the open-sided men s garments there is obviously
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 4, 2007
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          On 9/4/07, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

          > It's called a kosode. The kosode eventually evolves from an
          > undergarment into an outer garment by becoming longer and more decorated.

          I think the decoration came first--there are some very decorative
          kosode that I have seen--for some of the open-sided men's garments
          there is obviously something under them with rather bright colors, and
          I think it is a kosode.

          > While I have no documentation of how far back other undergarments go
          > because they are not mentioned in court diaries, kosode are definitely
          > mentioned in this context. It was considered the height of intimacy to
          > trade kosode with a lover.

          Are you sure 'kosode' rather than 'hitoe'? 'Hitoe' was usually
          considered the 'bottom' layer as I've seen it, although a kosode was
          worn underneath. Some of the other undergarments for the Heian period
          are the various sweat-wicking garments, which look like collars or
          hitoe. Not sure about fundoshi, though.

          > Re the Folkwear patterns, they are based on kimono worn well after the
          > SCA period. You might want to have a look at my web page to see what
          > the differences are. http://www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm

          I second this--look through Saionji-hime's stuff. She's a great resource!

          > The Japanese did not have flax linen in our period, but they did have
          > hemp which has similar properties. Period fabrics averaged about 16 to
          > 17" in width. (Modern kimono are more like 14", which is why you may
          > have to tinker with Folkwear's measurements to get a period silhouette).

          The Japanese costume book I have specifically has widths of 45~45.5
          cm. _However_, I've noticed they didn't use it all, depending on the
          garment. I'd say the 16" to 17" isn't a bad number to use for most
          things.

          > I use a running stitch, then fold the raw edges of the seam in against
          > each other and whip stitch them together. This is not "correct" as
          > Japanese textiles would not have required the seam finish, but it
          > works well with fabrics that do require a seam finish to prevent
          > ravelling.

          Even with the selvedge, you usually turn over the edges, but the
          piecing seems to be done as above.

          > While I cannot document anything specifically, I will tell you that
          > there is no problem in Japanese dress that cannot be solved by a
          > random strip of fabric. Belly bands were used for support during
          > pregnancy - and one sometimes sees belly wrapping for warmth on men. I
          > suppose one could make a case for using a similar wrapping for breast
          > support, if needed, but I can't confirm it.

          I could swear I've seen such a thing as a breast support device in
          modern Japanese jidai-geki, but I can't think of a period
          example--I'll look, though.

          -Ii
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! The major problem with undergarments is that the Costume Museum pretty much doesn t show them. These are garments which
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 6, 2007
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            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig! The major problem with undergarments is that
            the Costume Museum pretty much doesn't show them. These are garments
            which pretty much do not peep out from under over garments.
            Consequently, we can either choose to replicate recent wafuku
            undergarments or rely on the very small number of images which show
            people relatively undressed. Not a lot survives in part because most
            Japanese were being cremated. So, we do not have a lot of grave goods
            for much of our period of interest.

            I know what is worn under traditional wafuku. For women, these
            include three undergarments which are not visible once you have all
            of your clothing on. There are also a bunch of himo and what naught
            that are not seen.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • Dean Wayland
            Greetings All, For anyone here interested in learning Japanese, on-line dictionaries like that of Jim Bream s. are invaluable. However today I stumbled across
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 14, 2007
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              Greetings All,

              For anyone here interested in learning Japanese, on-line dictionaries
              like that of Jim Bream's. are invaluable. However today I stumbled
              across a very useful Japanese web site in English, that I thought may be
              of interest to the members of this list:

              http://www.saiga-jp.com

              The above link will take you to the home page of an on-line store called
              "SAIGA". Once there, if you scroll down the menu at the left, you will
              come across four links to pages headed "Japanese Learning".

              The following is linked off the "KANJI Dictionary" page and is a
              complete list of the KANJI used in daily life, and includes a search
              tool:

              http://www.saiga-jp.com/language/kanji_list.html

              The following is a link to the help page detailing their instructions
              for using their search tool.

              http://www.saiga-jp.com/dictionary_help.html

              Anyway, if you haven't come across this site before I hope you all find
              it as useful as I think we over here will do.

              All the best

              Dean

              --
              Dean Wayland

              Main Page:
              http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
              SHOUGUN Home Page
              http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk/SHOGUN.htm
            • Jason Lewis
              I use http://www.kanjisite.com too. That one has most likely been posted 100 time. Takamatsu Muneaki [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 14, 2007
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                I use http://www.kanjisite.com too. That one has most likely been posted 100
                time.


                Takamatsu Muneaki


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Nesmith
                I get lots of ????????????. How do I see the kanji? Especially since that is the very purpose of the site. scratching his head, Ishikawa Moritake Dean
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 14, 2007
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                  I get lots of ????????????. How do I see the kanji? Especially since that is the very purpose of the site.

                  scratching his head,
                  Ishikawa Moritake

                  Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote: Greetings All,

                  For anyone here interested in learning Japanese, on-line dictionaries
                  like that of Jim Bream's. are invaluable. However today I stumbled
                  across a very useful Japanese web site in English, that I thought may be
                  of interest to the members of this list:

                  http://www.saiga-jp.com

                  The above link will take you to the home page of an on-line store called
                  "SAIGA". Once there, if you scroll down the menu at the left, you will
                  come across four links to pages headed "Japanese Learning".

                  The following is linked off the "KANJI Dictionary" page and is a
                  complete list of the KANJI used in daily life, and includes a search
                  tool:

                  http://www.saiga-jp.com/language/kanji_list.html

                  The following is a link to the help page detailing their instructions
                  for using their search tool.

                  http://www.saiga-jp.com/dictionary_help.html

                  Anyway, if you haven't come across this site before I hope you all find
                  it as useful as I think we over here will do.

                  All the best

                  Dean

                  --
                  Dean Wayland

                  Main Page:
                  http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
                  SHOUGUN Home Page
                  http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk/SHOGUN.htm
                • Brook West
                  Moritake-san -- You need to install a Japanese font on your computer. WinXP, Win2000, and recent versions of MS Office include Japanese fonts. I prefer Mincho,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 16, 2007
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                    Moritake-san -- You need to install a Japanese font on your computer.
                    WinXP, Win2000, and recent versions of MS Office include Japanese
                    fonts. I prefer Mincho, but MS Gothic works fine, too.

                    Go to the "regional and language options" control panel and add
                    Japanese or "east asian language support" (depending on which version
                    of Windoze you use). You'll need the Windows install disk -- click
                    okay and it Windows will install the fonts and such from the CD.

                    If you've got a Mac of Linux, I expect the process is similar but I
                    don't know the details.

                    Gambatte, ne -- Tanukibayashi Kumao

                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I get lots of ????????????. How do I see the kanji? Especially
                    since that is the very purpose of the site.
                    >
                    > scratching his head,
                    > Ishikawa Moritake
                    >
                    > Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
                    Greetings All,
                    >
                    > For anyone here interested in learning Japanese, on-line
                    dictionaries
                    > like that of Jim Bream's. are invaluable. However today I stumbled
                    > across a very useful Japanese web site in English, that I thought
                    may be
                    > of interest to the members of this list:
                    >
                    > http://www.saiga-jp.com
                    >
                    > The above link will take you to the home page of an on-line store
                    called
                    > "SAIGA". Once there, if you scroll down the menu at the left, you
                    will
                    > come across four links to pages headed "Japanese Learning".
                    >
                    > The following is linked off the "KANJI Dictionary" page and is a
                    > complete list of the KANJI used in daily life, and includes a
                    search
                    > tool:
                    >
                    > http://www.saiga-jp.com/language/kanji_list.html
                    >
                    > The following is a link to the help page detailing their
                    instructions
                    > for using their search tool.
                    >
                    > http://www.saiga-jp.com/dictionary_help.html
                    >
                    > Anyway, if you haven't come across this site before I hope you all
                    find
                    > it as useful as I think we over here will do.
                    >
                    > All the best
                    >
                    > Dean
                    >
                    > --
                    > Dean Wayland
                    >
                    > Main Page:
                    > http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
                    > SHOUGUN Home Page
                    > http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk/SHOGUN.htm
                    >
                  • Date Saburou Yukiie
                    ... .co.uk ... This subject came up on SA a little while back. Below is what I posted which seemed to help. Quote: If you are using a Mac, you need a Japanese
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Brook West" <kitsune@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Moritake-san -- You need to install a Japanese font on your computer.
                      > WinXP, Win2000, and recent versions of MS Office include Japanese
                      > fonts. I prefer Mincho, but MS Gothic works fine, too.
                      >
                      > Go to the "regional and language options" control panel and add
                      > Japanese or "east asian language support" (depending on which version
                      > of Windoze you use). You'll need the Windows install disk -- click
                      > okay and it Windows will install the fonts and such from the CD.
                      >
                      > If you've got a Mac of Linux, I expect the process is similar but I
                      > don't know the details.
                      >
                      > Gambatte, ne -- Tanukibayashi Kumao
                      .co.uk
                      > > SHOUGUN Home Page
                      > > http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk/SHOGUN.htm
                      > >
                      >
                      This subject came up on SA a little while back. Below is what I posted which seemed to
                      help.
                      Quote:
                      If you are using a Mac, you need a Japanese Language kit and can get info about that
                      probably on Apple's Mac website.

                      I run both systems, and must say that the Mac is somewhat easier to work with than the
                      Microsuck IME.
                      It also comes with the OS now (OS9+ and OSX) and need only be installed. I was pissed
                      back in the day, because I purchased an expensive Japanese Language Kit and installed it
                      back when I ran OS8, and the very next OS had it built right in! GRR!!!
                      There are some differences in how each work, and the coding can be different. Especially if
                      you build web pages with two-byte characters like kanji.
                      For some reason, UTF8 and UTF16 are not fully supported in either editor, but I can say
                      with the Mac, that the integration seems to be much easier and more intuitive to use.
                      Once running, kanji can be placed in line, with a simple keystroke, and copied to the
                      clipboard. I have folders labled in Japanese and Chinese (Chinese is just as easy on a Mac),
                      and nearly every program (including those from adobe) seems to be able to handle the
                      kanji.
                      For the Microsuc IME, look here for instructions on implementation.
                      http://www.declan-software.com/japanese_ime/
                      The declan site is trying to sell you software, but the instructions are top-notch and
                      useful.
                      ...

                      I found some more useful info for the Mac users of Asian fonts.
                      http://redcocoon.org/cab/mysoft.html
                      and
                      http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=50037

                      Date
                      _____
                    • Chris St. Pierre
                      Greetings, I am seeking some help finding a family/clan name as I am changing my persona over from german to japanese as I simply have more interest in feudal
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                        Greetings, I am seeking some help finding a family/clan name as I am changing my persona over from german to japanese as I simply have more interest in feudal japan then medival europe.

                        Now, I've found my given name of Yoritomo on a SCA heraldry site, though I cannot remember which atm. Can anyone point me in the correct direction?

                        Thanks in advance
                        Severin Von Stroheim
                        the soon to be
                        Something or another Yoritomo






                        _________________________________________________________________
                        More photos; more messages; more whatever � Get MORE with Windows Live� Hotmail�. NOW with 5GB storage.
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jason Lewis
                        it is Wikipedia so take it for what it s worth, but there is a nice list of clan names at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_clans This might help you in
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                          it is Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth, but there is a nice list of
                          clan names at

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_clans

                          This might help you in choosing a period clan name.


                          Takamatsu Muneaki


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • wodeford
                          ... changing my persona over from german to japanese as I simply have more interest in feudal japan then medival europe. ... though I cannot remember which
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Chris St. Pierre" <Kakita_Kuroi@...>
                            wrote:

                            > Greetings, I am seeking some help finding a family/clan name as I am
                            changing my persona over from german to japanese as I simply have more
                            interest in feudal japan then medival europe.
                            >
                            > Now, I've found my given name of Yoritomo on a SCA heraldry site,
                            though I cannot remember which atm. Can anyone point me in the
                            correct direction?


                            Try http://www.sengokudaimyo.com and go into the "book" titled "An
                            Online Japanese Miscellany." There's a whole section on names in there.

                            Saionji no Hanae
                            West Kingdom
                          • Dean Wayland
                            Takamatsu-sama, I ve obviously missed the kanjisite.com when it s been posted before, thanks, I ve added it to my links page. All the best Dean In message
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 18, 2007
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                              Takamatsu-sama,

                              I've obviously missed the kanjisite.com when it's been posted before,
                              thanks, I've added it to my links page.

                              All the best

                              Dean


                              In message
                              <736f4cc60709140930v1f4a7e7ei90a864a9dc5a66c7@...>, Jason
                              Lewis <jason.lewis@...> writes
                              >
                              >I use http://www.kanjisite.com too. That one has most likely been posted
                              >100
                              >time.
                              >
                              >Takamatsu Muneaki
                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              Dean Wayland
                              Head Of The Fight School
                              http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
                            • James Eckman
                              Jim Breen s online dictionary: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html Jim Breen s Japanese page: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/japanese.html
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 18, 2007
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                                Jim Breen's online dictionary:
                                http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html

                                Jim Breen's Japanese page:
                                http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/japanese.html

                                Updated on a frequent basis and the best site for getting all info on
                                Japanese and PCs. Nothing's for sale either so you get the straight scoop.

                                Jim
                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Yoritomo was one of the very famous Minamoto of the Genpei War. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 18, 2007
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig! Yoritomo was one of the very famous Minamoto
                                  of the Genpei War.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! While the wikipedia site does not make me gag, I do not recommend it as there are problems with convolving uji with han.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 18, 2007
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                                    Noble Cousins!

                                    Greetings from Solveig! While the wikipedia site does not make me
                                    gag, I do
                                    not recommend it as there are problems with convolving uji with han.
                                    These
                                    are two entirely different entities. The uji continued in use all the
                                    way up to
                                    the 19th century. Very technically, if you are a member of the
                                    military class,
                                    then you would most likely have both a family name "myoji" and a clan
                                    name "uji". While you might not generally use the name of the clan, you
                                    would still know what it was and it would be recorded in certain
                                    documents
                                    at least as late as the 19th century.

                                    NOTE. What the wikipedia site is calling "medieval clans" are
                                    actually han.
                                    These are not properly clans and should not be used for
                                    names
                                    except as family names. Even if you are Tokugawa Ieyasu or
                                    Oda Nobunaga, you will have a separate uji name. The
                                    one and
                                    only one late period exception to this is the Toyotomi.
                                    Incidentally,
                                    nobody should include Toyotomi in their name as there
                                    were too
                                    few of them.

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... You might also try consulting with your local herald. Your local herald may know someone nearby who has a copy of
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 18, 2007
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                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!
                                      > Try http://www.sengokudaimyo.com and go into the "book" titled "An
                                      > Online Japanese Miscellany." There's a whole section on names in
                                      > there.
                                      You might also try consulting with your local herald. Your local
                                      herald may
                                      know someone nearby who has a copy of Name Construction in
                                      Medieval Japan which is a somewhat modest pamphlet on pre-1601
                                      Japanese names.

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin)
                                      Ohayo Yoritomo-dono, I happen to be a herald and have a copy of the suggested reference. If you would like me to assist you with formulating a Japanese name
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 20, 2007
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                                        Ohayo Yoritomo-dono,

                                        I happen to be a herald and have a copy of the suggested reference.
                                        If you would like me to assist you with formulating a Japanese name
                                        with documentation for submission and registration, feel free to
                                        contact me off list: masahide at summerscauldron.com.

                                        Furukusu Masahide

                                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir
                                        <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        <snip>
                                        > You might also try consulting with your local herald. Your local
                                        > herald may
                                        > know someone nearby who has a copy of Name Construction in
                                        > Medieval Japan which is a somewhat modest pamphlet on pre-1601
                                        > Japanese names.
                                        >
                                        > Your Humble Servant
                                        > Solveig Throndardottir
                                        > Amateur Scholar
                                        >
                                      • Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin)
                                        Greetings, Can you recommend any reading or sources for guidelines for fomulating a uji name? I have referenced Name Consturction in Medieval Japan and while
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 20, 2007
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                                          Greetings,

                                          Can you recommend any reading or sources for guidelines for
                                          fomulating a uji name? I have referenced "Name Consturction in
                                          Medieval Japan" and while it discusses where the uji came from,
                                          their use, and provides some information on how some uji names
                                          derived from the Chinese reading of the family name's kanji, it does
                                          not offer any advice on cronstruction of new uji names.

                                          I am aware that the various uji were "fixed" during most of our
                                          period, but given that we are "creative" and use constructed
                                          surnames, etc, I feel it is reasonable to do the same for uji. From
                                          a use perspective, this may be fairly simple. I am however also
                                          interested in a "registration with the College of Arms" perspective
                                          which puts certain restrictions on form (i.e. two name elements,
                                          approved household or clan designator, etc).

                                          Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

                                          Furukusu Masahide

                                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir
                                          <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Noble Cousins!
                                          >
                                          > Greetings from Solveig! While the wikipedia site does not make me
                                          > gag, I do
                                          > not recommend it as there are problems with convolving uji with
                                          han.
                                          > These
                                          > are two entirely different entities. The uji continued in use all
                                          the
                                          > way up to
                                          > the 19th century. Very technically, if you are a member of the
                                          > military class,
                                          > then you would most likely have both a family name "myoji" and a
                                          clan
                                          > name "uji". While you might not generally use the name of the
                                          clan, you
                                          > would still know what it was and it would be recorded in certain
                                          > documents
                                          > at least as late as the 19th century.
                                          >
                                          > NOTE. What the wikipedia site is calling "medieval clans" are
                                          > actually han.
                                          > These are not properly clans and should not be used
                                          for
                                          > names
                                          > except as family names. Even if you are Tokugawa
                                          Ieyasu or
                                          > Oda Nobunaga, you will have a separate uji name.
                                          The
                                          > one and
                                          > only one late period exception to this is the
                                          Toyotomi.
                                          > Incidentally,
                                          > nobody should include Toyotomi in their name as
                                          there
                                          > were too
                                          > few of them.
                                          >
                                          > Your Humble Servant
                                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                                          > Amateur Scholar
                                        • JL Badgley
                                          ... Umm, from my understanding of the rules, all you really need for a name is a given name and at least one byname. For that you can simply choose a Family
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 20, 2007
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                                            On 9/20/07, Furukusu Masahide (Taliesin) <masahide@...> wrote:

                                            > Can you recommend any reading or sources for guidelines for
                                            > fomulating a uji name? I have referenced "Name Consturction in
                                            > Medieval Japan" and while it discusses where the uji came from,
                                            > their use, and provides some information on how some uji names
                                            > derived from the Chinese reading of the family name's kanji, it does
                                            > not offer any advice on cronstruction of new uji names.
                                            >
                                            > I am aware that the various uji were "fixed" during most of our
                                            > period, but given that we are "creative" and use constructed
                                            > surnames, etc, I feel it is reasonable to do the same for uji. From
                                            > a use perspective, this may be fairly simple. I am however also
                                            > interested in a "registration with the College of Arms" perspective
                                            > which puts certain restrictions on form (i.e. two name elements,
                                            > approved household or clan designator, etc).

                                            Umm, from my understanding of the rules, all you really need for a
                                            name is a given name and at least one byname. For that you can simply
                                            choose a Family Name and a Given Name and you are good to go. There's
                                            no need to 'create' an uji. If you are going to create anything, I'd
                                            go for a Family Name, as those were more prevalent and easier to
                                            construct. I guess I just don't see why you are trying to create an
                                            uji.

                                            -Ii
                                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Starting around 700 CE the emperor obtained control over the creation of new uji. Thus, creating new uji names is
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 20, 2007
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                                              Noble Cousin!

                                              Greetings from Solveig!

                                              > Can you recommend any reading or sources for guidelines for
                                              > fomulating a uji name?

                                              Starting around 700 CE the emperor obtained control over the
                                              creation of new uji. Thus, creating new uji names is ahistorical
                                              unless you are recreating essentially prehistoric Japan. The
                                              situation with uji is actually worse than I suggest as most of the
                                              uji pretty much died out. Further, there is really little good reason
                                              to claim membership in a created uji as the historical ones are
                                              generally speaking going to be of higher status. For that matter,
                                              its pretty easy to claim membership in the Minamoto as the
                                              Minamoto were actively recruiting during the Genpei War. As
                                              the Minamoto claim descent from a collection of emperors, your
                                              self-made uji is unlikely to be classier. Similarly, another uji already
                                              has descent from Hachiman (the war god) all sewn up.

                                              > I am aware that the various uji were "fixed" during most of our
                                              > period, but given that we are "creative" and use constructed
                                              > surnames, etc, I feel it is reasonable to do the same for uji.

                                              I disagree.

                                              Your Humble Servant
                                              Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Amateur Scholar





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The College of Arms requires a minimum of two parts for anyone s name. However, if you are a male member of the
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 20, 2007
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                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                                > Umm, from my understanding of the rules, all you really need for a
                                                > name is a given name and at least one byname. For that you can simply
                                                > choose a Family Name and a Given Name and you are good to go. There's
                                                > no need to 'create' an uji. If you are going to create anything, I'd
                                                > go for a Family Name, as those were more prevalent and easier to
                                                > construct. I guess I just don't see why you are trying to create an
                                                > uji.

                                                The College of Arms requires a minimum of two parts for anyone's name.
                                                However, if you are a male member of the Japanese buke (military class)
                                                from after the Genpei War, you should have a family name, a common
                                                name, and a nanori. Doing otherwise is pretty much ahistoric. You should
                                                also know which of the historical uji you claim descent from. This
                                                decision
                                                can have an effect on your common name.

                                                As for family names, they were being constructed all the time. In fact,
                                                people changed them during the course of their lives There are
                                                thousands of family names in Japan. But, most everyone claims descent
                                                from only about a dozen uji.

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar





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