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Darter's Pennsic 36 Photos

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  • Darter
    *** I am posting this here since I did a photo essay on Japanese fighters getting ready for battle in one of the new galleries. I thought it may be of interest
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 31, 2007
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      *** I am posting this here since I did a photo essay on Japanese
      fighters getting ready for battle in one of the new galleries. I
      thought it may be of interest to you all. ***

      I have finished processing my photos from Pennsic 36. I would like to
      preface this by apologizing for not having as many images as in past
      years. The weather this year really had a direct impact on what I
      shot. The first week's heat & humidity had everyone hunkered down,
      seeking cover. The second week's daily deluges of rain had everyone
      in "survival mode." Almost all of my scheduled shoots were canceled.

      You can see the galleries here: http://www.pbase.com/darter02/sca

      Please feel free to leave (polite) comments under photos or in
      galleries.

      You can also still get Pennsic War calendars here:
      http://stores.ebay.com/Darters-Depot

      Thank you,
      Darter
    • cybercrist2002
      Those photo s are absolutely awesome. I have just been inspired to do some work on my armor this weekend. Thank you!
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 1, 2007
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        Those photo's are absolutely awesome. I have just been inspired to do
        some work on my armor this weekend. Thank you!

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Darter" <Darter_002@...> wrote:
        >
        > *** I am posting this here since I did a photo essay on Japanese
        > fighters getting ready for battle in one of the new galleries. I
        > thought it may be of interest to you all. ***
        >
        > I have finished processing my photos from Pennsic 36. I would like to
        > preface this by apologizing for not having as many images as in past
        > years. The weather this year really had a direct impact on what I
        > shot. The first week's heat & humidity had everyone hunkered down,
        > seeking cover. The second week's daily deluges of rain had everyone
        > in "survival mode." Almost all of my scheduled shoots were canceled.
        >
        > You can see the galleries here: http://www.pbase.com/darter02/sca
        >
        > Please feel free to leave (polite) comments under photos or in
        > galleries.
        >
        > You can also still get Pennsic War calendars here:
        > http://stores.ebay.com/Darters-Depot
        >
        > Thank you,
        > Darter
        >
      • David Williams
        I was told this last night, since it s beocome known in our group I am into Japanese. It seems people are dredging up whatever they know and presenting it to
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 5, 2007
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          I was told this last night, since it's beocome known in our group I am into Japanese. It seems people are dredging up whatever they know and presenting it to me. Which is great because there is soooo much to learn. But some I have to wonder about.

          Is it true in period that spearmen were paid more than swordsmen? The reason given was there are only 16 basic sword moves/positions and there are 93 basic spear moves/positions.
          Also is there another name for a spear in period? I thought it was Yari but someone kept calling it a different name that I can't recall now.

          Thanks for any info/calrification on this.
          Cristen


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sigrune@aol.com
          ... When you say in period I have to take that to mean prior to 1600 CE, and that is generally not true, since spears were used on the field of battle far
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 5, 2007
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            David Williams <gary7williams@...> writes:

            >Is it true in period that spearmen were
            >paid more than swordsmen?

            When you say "in period" I have to take that to mean prior to 1600 CE, and that is generally not true, since spears were used on the field of battle far more than swords, and you were expected to use either as ordered or nessisary.

            >The reason...only 16 basic sword moves/positions and
            >there are 93 basic spear moves/positions.

            I cannot accurately comment on the number of moves, but I feel that the origin of that particular snip-it of information is baised towards spearmen. It would depend on the school being taught; one school may categorize things as five diffrent moves, another school may simply consider those same five moves as a single move, and yet another may not recognise it as part of their basic curriculum.

            I do know that by the mid 1700's trained spearmen were more highly regarded due to theie rarity and could usually command a slightly higher rate as retainers. By that time it was an extreeme exception for a samurai to have experianced combat on the field, and a large number would have as their only combat experiance minor scuffles on the street. The sword was considered much more useful in everyday life, but a spearman due to his relatively rare training could get a bounus stipend... Spearmen were prized as escorts for the sankin-kotai (the travels for alternate attendance as required by the shogun's court) During the sankin-kotai a daimyo and his required entorage were outside the cities and ambushes did happen, having someone able to skillfully use a weapon that nearly all of your opposition would be effectively untrained against is a incredible asset to have on your side.

            >...is there another name for a spear in period?

            A straight bladed spear is generally called yari, a curved bladed spear is generally called naginata. There are other names for straight bladed spears and the variations thereof, but those are the basic two groupings. Think of it this way, we have names like: boar-spear, stabbing-spear, pike, lance, javlin, allespike, partisan, langspar, etc. but they all basically mean the same thing... straight-ish pointy metal stabby thing on a stick.

            -Takeda
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You should expect a spearman to be paid more because he also has swords while the swordsman only has his swords.
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 6, 2007
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! You should expect a spearman to be paid more
              because he also has swords while the swordsman only has his swords.
              Basically, if the sword is your primary weapon, then you are pretty
              low class.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! A naginata is not a spear. It is a sword on a stick. It is a cutty thing with a long handle. Your Humble Servant Solveig
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 6, 2007
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! A naginata is not a spear. It is a sword on a
                stick. It is a cutty thing with a long handle.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sigrune@aol.com
                ... While I agree on your assesment, for in fact is is very much like a wakizashi with an obscenely long handle, in period (prior to the fall of Osaka in 1615
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 6, 2007
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                  Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> writes:

                  >A naginata is not a spear. It is a sword on a stick.

                  While I agree on your assesment, for in fact is is very much like a wakizashi with an obscenely long handle, in period (prior to the fall of Osaka in 1615 anyhow) it was considered a spear. As a matter of fact pretty much all cutting or pokey pole weapons were in the general "spear" category, especially in the army lists.

                  In an earlier post, you write:
                  >You should expect a spearman to be paid more
                  >because he also has swords while the swordsman
                  >only has his swords.

                  >Basically, if the sword is your primary weapon,
                  >then you are pretty low class.

                  Again prior to 1600 (1615 considering Osaka) this is supremely untrue. Spearmen (lancers/pikes) make up the primary bulk of the infantry, very late in period many daimyo or generals did not even bother with providing a "loaned" sword as was customary to the bulk of hired retainers and certainly not to conscripted troops. During the sengoku spears were the primary armament. While a well paid and statused retainer may be issued or posses sword/s of their own, they were expected to fight as directed, which meant spears. The people who did not carry spears and relyed on swords were generally unit commanders, which would not be the low of the low.

                  Check damage to extant armors, the accounts in the scrolls, and visual depictions, all of these contradict the view that spears were premier... everyone was using them, the scut troops almost exclusively.

                  -Takeda
                • David
                  One should also take into consideration that a katana/tachi would cost the equivalent of 1-2 yrs salary and therefore NOT readily handed out to conscripted
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 6, 2007
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                    One should also take into consideration that a katana/tachi would cost
                    the equivalent of 1-2 yrs salary and therefore NOT readily "handed
                    out" to conscripted ashigaru. The naginata would be similar in price.
                    The yari, on the other hand was relatively inexpensive in comparison
                    and much more effective and versatile in the hands of semi-skilled
                    fighters.

                    Ishikawa
                    (Min Ryu Shinto Ryu)


                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> writes:
                    >
                    > >A naginata is not a spear. It is a sword on a stick.
                    >
                    > While I agree on your assesment, for in fact is is very much like a
                    wakizashi with an obscenely long handle, in period (prior to the fall
                    of Osaka in 1615 anyhow) it was considered a spear. As a matter of
                    fact pretty much all cutting or pokey pole weapons were in the general
                    "spear" category, especially in the army lists.
                    >
                    > In an earlier post, you write:
                    > >You should expect a spearman to be paid more
                    > >because he also has swords while the swordsman
                    > >only has his swords.
                    >
                    > >Basically, if the sword is your primary weapon,
                    > >then you are pretty low class.
                    >
                    > Again prior to 1600 (1615 considering Osaka) this is supremely
                    untrue. Spearmen (lancers/pikes) make up the primary bulk of the
                    infantry, very late in period many daimyo or generals did not even
                    bother with providing a "loaned" sword as was customary to the bulk of
                    hired retainers and certainly not to conscripted troops. During the
                    sengoku spears were the primary armament. While a well paid and
                    statused retainer may be issued or posses sword/s of their own, they
                    were expected to fight as directed, which meant spears. The people who
                    did not carry spears and relyed on swords were generally unit
                    commanders, which would not be the low of the low.
                    >
                    > Check damage to extant armors, the accounts in the scrolls, and
                    visual depictions, all of these contradict the view that spears were
                    premier... everyone was using them, the scut troops almost exclusively.
                    >
                    > -Takeda
                    >
                  • Park McKellop
                    A pole + 1/2# of steel vs several # of steel for the weaponry, not including the far superior armor for the non-spear troops, is a very significant difference
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 6, 2007
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                      A pole + 1/2# of steel vs several # of steel for the weaponry, not including the far superior armor for the non-spear troops, is a very significant difference in costs.

                      Alcyoneus

                      David <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                      One should also take into consideration that a katana/tachi would cost
                      the equivalent of 1-2 yrs salary and therefore NOT readily "handed
                      out" to conscripted ashigaru. The naginata would be similar in price.
                      The yari, on the other hand was relatively inexpensive in comparison
                      and much more effective and versatile in the hands of semi-skilled
                      fighters.

                      Ishikawa
                      (Min Ryu Shinto Ryu)

                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, sigrune@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> writes:
                      >
                      > >A naginata is not a spear. It is a sword on a stick.
                      >
                      > While I agree on your assesment, for in fact is is very much like a
                      wakizashi with an obscenely long handle, in period (prior to the fall
                      of Osaka in 1615 anyhow) it was considered a spear. As a matter of
                      fact pretty much all cutting or pokey pole weapons were in the general
                      "spear" category, especially in the army lists.
                      >
                      > In an earlier post, you write:
                      > >You should expect a spearman to be paid more
                      > >because he also has swords while the swordsman
                      > >only has his swords.
                      >
                      > >Basically, if the sword is your primary weapon,
                      > >then you are pretty low class.
                      >
                      > Again prior to 1600 (1615 considering Osaka) this is supremely
                      untrue. Spearmen (lancers/pikes) make up the primary bulk of the
                      infantry, very late in period many daimyo or generals did not even
                      bother with providing a "loaned" sword as was customary to the bulk of
                      hired retainers and certainly not to conscripted troops. During the
                      sengoku spears were the primary armament. While a well paid and
                      statused retainer may be issued or posses sword/s of their own, they
                      were expected to fight as directed, which meant spears. The people who
                      did not carry spears and relyed on swords were generally unit
                      commanders, which would not be the low of the low.
                      >
                      > Check damage to extant armors, the accounts in the scrolls, and
                      visual depictions, all of these contradict the view that spears were
                      premier... everyone was using them, the scut troops almost exclusively.
                      >
                      > -Takeda
                      >






                      ---------------------------------
                      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                      Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... How do you support this contention? The dynamics of the two are somewhat different and iconographic evidence does
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 6, 2007
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > While I agree on your assesment, for in fact is is very much like a
                        > wakizashi with an obscenely long handle, in period (prior to the
                        > fall of Osaka in 1615 anyhow) it was considered a spear. As a
                        > matter of fact pretty much all cutting or pokey pole weapons were
                        > in the general "spear" category, especially in the army lists.

                        How do you support this contention? The dynamics of the two are
                        somewhat different and iconographic evidence does little to support
                        your contention.

                        >> You should expect a spearman to be paid more
                        >> because he also has swords while the swordsman
                        >> only has his swords.
                        >
                        >> Basically, if the sword is your primary weapon,
                        >> then you are pretty low class.
                        >
                        > Again prior to 1600 (1615 considering Osaka) this is supremely
                        > untrue. Spearmen (lancers/pikes) make up the primary bulk of the
                        > infantry, very late in period many daimyo or generals did not even
                        > bother with providing a "loaned" sword as was customary to the bulk
                        > of hired retainers and certainly not to conscripted troops. During
                        > the sengoku spears were the primary armament. While a well paid
                        > and statused retainer may be issued or posses sword/s of their own,
                        > they were expected to fight as directed, which meant spears. The
                        > people who did not carry spears and relyed on swords were generally
                        > unit commanders, which would not be the low of the low.

                        Again you seem to be missing what I was writing. I contended that
                        spear or naginata was the primary weapon for most foot soldiers.
                        However, battle paintings will still show these soldiers wearing at
                        least one and possibly two swords. At least one sword is useful for
                        taking heads. Unit commanders are not really relying on swords. They
                        may wear them, but that is another matter. Also, lets get real, high
                        class folks such as Atsumori in Heike Monogatari go into battle with
                        bow and arrow.

                        > Check damage to extant armors, the accounts in the scrolls, and
                        > visual depictions, all of these contradict the view that spears
                        > were premier... everyone was using them, the scut troops almost
                        > exclusively.

                        Actually, you see lots of spears in battle paintings. You also see
                        naginata. If anything, naginata have an almost ceremonial role as you
                        will see them held by retainers in headquarters units. For example, a
                        particularly famous painting of Takeda Shingen as I recall at least.
                        Also, earlier kuge guard units typically used naginata. Thus,
                        naginata has a certain panache. Again, I contended that swords were
                        secondary weapons. This agrees with what I have read, and what I have
                        observed in battle paintings.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What sort of army are you imagining? A feudal lord in Japan owed clothing to his retainers and a variety of payments
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 6, 2007
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!
                          > One should also take into consideration that a katana/tachi would cost
                          > the equivalent of 1-2 yrs salary and therefore NOT readily "handed
                          > out" to conscripted ashigaru. The naginata would be similar in price.
                          > The yari, on the other hand was relatively inexpensive in comparison
                          > and much more effective and versatile in the hands of semi-skilled
                          > fighters.
                          What sort of army are you imagining? A feudal lord in Japan owed
                          clothing to his retainers and a variety of payments and possibly land
                          rights. However, we are talking about a system built essentially on
                          mercenary troops with long-term and possibly hereditary contracts. We
                          really are not discussing conscript troops. If anything, steps were
                          taken at various times to limit entry into the military class.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar
                        • JL Badgley
                          Okay, I think people need to stop and start defining their periods. As I see it, we have three general periods people are talking about: Heian-Kamakura
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 7, 2007
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                            Okay, I think people need to stop and start defining their periods.
                            As I see it, we have three general periods people are talking about:

                            Heian-Kamakura

                            Muromachi-Sengoku

                            Edo

                            On 9/6/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > While I agree on your assesment, for in fact is is very much like a
                            > > wakizashi with an obscenely long handle, in period (prior to the
                            > > fall of Osaka in 1615 anyhow) it was considered a spear. As a
                            > > matter of fact pretty much all cutting or pokey pole weapons were
                            > > in the general "spear" category, especially in the army lists.
                            >
                            > How do you support this contention? The dynamics of the two are
                            > somewhat different and iconographic evidence does little to support
                            > your contention.

                            While Takeda can support this better than I, I believe that he is
                            correct from a Sengoku period mindset, in that 'polearms' are
                            generally lumped together as a single category (and I think it usually
                            gets translated as 'spear').

                            > Again you seem to be missing what I was writing. I contended that
                            > spear or naginata was the primary weapon for most foot soldiers.
                            > However, battle paintings will still show these soldiers wearing at
                            > least one and possibly two swords. At least one sword is useful for
                            > taking heads. Unit commanders are not really relying on swords. They
                            > may wear them, but that is another matter. Also, lets get real, high
                            > class folks such as Atsumori in Heike Monogatari go into battle with
                            > bow and arrow.

                            Dragging Atsumori into a discussion of massed spearmen seems to be
                            really mixing your periods. With the rise of the ashigaru, the
                            spearmen are certainly not high-ranking or highly paid. In fact, they
                            are probably the lowest paid men in the army.

                            Heck, even in the Mongol scrolls, though the naginata is a more
                            'elegant' weapon, it would seem, those using it are generally dressed
                            in retainer armour, indicating their lower status and, I would assume,
                            lower pay. In that case the more 'expensive' troops have bows and,
                            perhaps even more important, horses. Of course, during that period,
                            you pretty much had to outfit yourself, it seems, so a sword would
                            have been part of what you had.

                            > > Check damage to extant armors, the accounts in the scrolls, and
                            > > visual depictions, all of these contradict the view that spears
                            > > were premier... everyone was using them, the scut troops almost
                            > > exclusively.
                            >
                            > Actually, you see lots of spears in battle paintings. You also see
                            > naginata. If anything, naginata have an almost ceremonial role as you
                            > will see them held by retainers in headquarters units. For example, a
                            > particularly famous painting of Takeda Shingen as I recall at least.
                            > Also, earlier kuge guard units typically used naginata. Thus,
                            > naginata has a certain panache. Again, I contended that swords were
                            > secondary weapons. This agrees with what I have read, and what I have
                            > observed in battle paintings.

                            Okay, I think you misread him here. Takeda-dono pointed out that you
                            see lots of spears in battle paintings. That's his contention--if
                            everyone is using them, they aren't that rare. With such a flood of
                            spearmen on the market, they aren't that valuable.

                            Also, just because kuge guard units use the naginata doesn't mean it
                            has panache--I don't see the logic in your argument. And where is
                            your source for that?

                            I apologize that I can't go tracking down my sources, as I need to get
                            to work, but if this is still going when I get home, I'll start
                            digging.


                            -Ii
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Noble Cousins! ... Well, this is one of the things that has bothered me about some of the statements in this discussion. Takeda, I think it was, was
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 7, 2007
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                              Noble Cousins!

                              > Okay, I think people need to stop and start defining their periods.
                              > As I see it, we have three general periods people are talking about:

                              Well, this is one of the things that has bothered me about some of
                              the statements in this discussion. Takeda, I think it was, was
                              generalizing all use prior to 1615. Considering that pre 1615
                              includes Japanese implementations of classical Chinese armies,
                              I am unwilling to buy into the generalization.

                              > While Takeda can support this better than I, I believe that he is
                              > correct from a Sengoku period mindset, in that 'polearms' are
                              > generally lumped together as a single category (and I think it usually
                              > gets translated as 'spear').

                              Lots of people insist on translating "mochi" as "rice cake" and "katsuo"
                              as "bonito" even though "rice cake" conjures up a completely
                              different image and "katsuo" is really a skipjack (if I am recalling
                              the fish correctly). Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.

                              > Dragging Atsumori into a discussion of massed spearmen seems to be
                              > really mixing your periods. With the rise of the ashigaru, the
                              > spearmen are certainly not high-ranking or highly paid. In fact, they
                              > are probably the lowest paid men in the army.

                              The ashigaru were definitely low class and low paid. However, there
                              was little if any specific mention of them either in the subject line or
                              in the general discussion. The message which started this discussion
                              reads:

                              >> I was told this last night, since it's beocome known in our group
                              >> I am into
                              >> Japanese. It seems people are dredging up whatever they know and
                              >> presenting it to me. Which is great because there is soooo much to
                              >> learn.
                              >> But some I have to wonder about.
                              >>
                              >> Is it true in period that spearmen were paid more than swordsmen?
                              >> The reason given was there are only 16 basic sword moves/positions
                              >> and there are 93 basic spear moves/positions. Also is there another
                              >> name for a spear in period? I thought it was Yari but someone kept
                              >> calling it a different name that I can't recall now.

                              "Period" includes rather a LOT more than the Sengoku period. Further,
                              simply talking about weapons forms covers a lot more than ashigaru.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • sigrune@aol.com
                              ... Clarification: generalizing that spearmen were generally the lowest paid of troop types prior to 1615) ... I personally feel that my original statement:
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> writes:

                                >Takeda, I think it was, was generalizing
                                >all use prior to 1615.
                                Clarification: generalizing that spearmen were generally the lowest paid of troop types prior to 1615)

                                >Considering that pre 1615 includes Japanese
                                >implementations of classical Chinese armies,
                                >I am unwilling to buy into the generalization.

                                I personally feel that my original statement: that spear (and polearm troops) prior to 1615, including the Jomon and Nara periods were generally the lowest paid of all troop types, and that it is not until the Edo period in the 1700's that spearmen came to rate a premier pay position. I feel my statement holds true for any time prior to 1615, and if there are exceptions it would be of either extremely talented individuals (hired as spear instructors, which would not be a basic troop type) or people who used spears but were being paid more for societal rank, (again not a basic troop type)

                                >Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.

                                I agree, modernly a naginata is not a spear.
                                Yari and naginata are polearms (arms having a pole) and will leave it at that.

                                >There was little if any specific mention of them
                                >either in the subject line or in the general discussion.
                                >The message which started this discussion reads:
                                >"Is it true in period that spearmen were paid
                                >more than swordsmen?"

                                And that is what I based my answer on... "In period", "spearmen", "swordsmen"; there is no mention of societal class. If you are going to critisize my answers please make sure you truly read the question and my answer, since it addressed each part of the question seperately.

                                -Takeda
                              • sigrune@aol.com
                                ... Lady Solvieg, I do appologize if my last reply causes any offence to you, I replyed in the tone I took from your post, which was not the best thing for me
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                  Solvieg writes:

                                  >Considering that pre 1615 includes Japanese implementations
                                  >of classical Chinese armies, I am unwilling to buy into the
                                  >generalization.

                                  Lady Solvieg,
                                  I do appologize if my last reply causes any offence to you, I replyed in the tone I took from your post, which was not the best thing for me to do.

                                  I would like to inquiry you about your above statement, in my own readings the ancient Imperial armies, based on the Chinese model had the largest portion of the ranks made of spearmen, though heavily supllimented by swordsmen. (and in that time, ones who may or were equiped with shields) Have you seen any evidence that the spearmen of the rank and file were higher paid, or of higher status that the swordsmen of the rank and file in those units? I have not seen such in my reading and research, though there is little that I have read that specifically talks about wages or recompense, either directly or by compairison of those of the rank and file in the early Imperial armies.

                                  Thanks,
                                  -Takeda
                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The point I made in the posting to which you responded is that generalizing for all Japanese armies prior to 1615 is
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!
                                    > I would like to inquiry you about your above statement, in my own
                                    > readings the ancient Imperial armies, based on the Chinese model
                                    > had the largest portion of the ranks made of spearmen, though
                                    > heavily supllimented by swordsmen. (and in that time, ones who may
                                    > or were equiped with shields) Have you seen any evidence that the
                                    > spearmen of the rank and file were higher paid, or of higher status
                                    > that the swordsmen of the rank and file in those units? I have not
                                    > seen such in my reading and research, though there is little that I
                                    > have read that specifically talks about wages or recompense, either
                                    > directly or by compairison of those of the rank and file in the
                                    > early Imperial armies.
                                    The point I made in the posting to which you responded is that
                                    generalizing for all Japanese armies prior to 1615 is at best a huge
                                    leap of faith. During that period of time, the Japanese had a number
                                    of societal, governmental, and military systems. Earlier, someone
                                    objected to my mentioning Atsumori, but the problem is that simply
                                    saying pre 1615 allows not only for Atsumori, but the earlier Chinese-
                                    style armies which includes troops best attested to by the famous
                                    terra-cotta figures.

                                    Regardless, a bushi who has only a sword is poorly equipped.

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • James Eckman
                                    Posted by: Solveig Throndardottir ... Because bonito is one of it s other popular names. The problem with using popular versus scientific names. ... Since it
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
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                                      Posted by: "Solveig Throndardottir"
                                      > Lots of people insist on translating "mochi" as "rice cake" and "katsuo"
                                      > as "bonito" even though "rice cake" conjures up a completely
                                      > different image and "katsuo" is really a skipjack (if I am recalling
                                      > the fish correctly).

                                      Because bonito is one of it's other popular names. The problem with
                                      using popular versus scientific names.

                                      > Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.

                                      Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets called a
                                      halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?

                                      Jim Eckman
                                    • Date Saburou Yukiie
                                      My dear Solvieg-hime - you know I love you as a member of the family, and as a scholar...but we should focus on things war-like, or not... The warriors of this
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
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                                        My dear Solvieg-hime - you know I love you as a member of the family, and as a
                                        scholar...but we should focus on things war-like, or not...
                                        The warriors of this group have a lexicon, and a valued set of rules and postulates...
                                        Your understanding of things Japanese is wonderful - but your focus is broad...
                                        Those of us who refine our search for understanding into more finite terms, may (or may
                                        not, as it were) have a view that encompasses a better outlook.
                                        You, my dear, are not a soldier, nor could you ever be. You are too sweet. I would not even
                                        like to see you don the garb of a soldier, nor would I hope to see you wear the clothes of
                                        one who studies such.
                                        When you step into the discussions of soldiers, you do not nec. have a soldiers point of
                                        view.
                                        We love you and your skill at research...but it is not the research of a soldier.
                                        Date, your Clan brother...with all love and respect...


                                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Posted by: "Solveig Throndardottir"
                                        > > Lots of people insist on translating "mochi" as "rice cake" and "katsuo"
                                        > > as "bonito" even though "rice cake" conjures up a completely
                                        > > different image and "katsuo" is really a skipjack (if I am recalling
                                        > > the fish correctly).
                                        >
                                        > Because bonito is one of it's other popular names. The problem with
                                        > using popular versus scientific names.
                                        >
                                        > > Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.
                                        >
                                        > Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets called a
                                        > halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?
                                        >
                                        > Jim Eckman
                                        >
                                      • Park McKellop
                                        James Eckman wrote: Regardless, a naginata really isn t a spear. Since it really doesn t have a
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
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                                          James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote: > Regardless, a naginata really isn't a spear.

                                          Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets called a
                                          halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?

                                          Jame Eckman
                                          Glaive works pretty well.
                                          Alcyoneus








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                                        • wodeford
                                          ... Big Pointy Thing On A Stick.... There. I ll go back to being decorative now. ;-D Saionji no Hanae West
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
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                                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop <squire009@...> wrote:
                                            > Glaive works pretty well.
                                            > Alcyoneus

                                            Big Pointy Thing On A Stick....

                                            There. I'll go back to being decorative now. ;-D

                                            Saionji no Hanae
                                            West
                                          • Park McKellop
                                            In German, that would be Bigpointythingonastick. ;) Alcyoneus the Mostly Decorative Or not. ;) ... Big Pointy Thing On A Stick.... There. I ll go back to being
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 8, 2007
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                                              In German, that would be Bigpointythingonastick.

                                              ;)

                                              Alcyoneus the Mostly Decorative

                                              Or not. ;)

                                              wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
                                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop <squire009@...> wrote:
                                              > Glaive works pretty well.
                                              > Alcyoneus

                                              Big Pointy Thing On A Stick....

                                              There. I'll go back to being decorative now. ;-D

                                              Saionji no Hanae
                                              West






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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • James Eckman
                                              ... True, I will use that word as the Western equivalent. Or bigpointythingonastick ;) Jim Eckman
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 9, 2007
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                                                > Posted by: "Park McKellop"
                                                > Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets called a
                                                > halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?
                                                >
                                                > Glaive works pretty well.
                                                > Alcyoneus

                                                True, I will use that word as the Western equivalent. Or
                                                bigpointythingonastick ;)

                                                Jim Eckman
                                              • chasrmartin
                                                ... called a ... Glaive. - Mugyo
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 10, 2007
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                                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Posted by: "Park McKellop"
                                                  > > Since it really doesn't have a western equivalent, it also gets
                                                  called a
                                                  > > halberd sometimes. You could make a new word, pole-sword?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Glaive works pretty well.
                                                  > > Alcyoneus
                                                  >
                                                  > True, I will use that word as the Western equivalent. Or
                                                  > bigpointythingonastick ;)

                                                  Glaive.

                                                  - Mugyo
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