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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: No means no...?

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  • Barbara Nostrand
    Baron Edward! Sorry. But, I am guilty of following some Anime and Manga. I followed: Ge ge ge Kitarou, Ninja Hatori Kun, Dr. Slump Arale Chan, and a couple of
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
      Baron Edward!

      Sorry. But, I am guilty of following some Anime and Manga.
      I followed: Ge ge ge Kitarou, Ninja Hatori Kun, Dr. Slump
      Arale Chan, and a couple of others. After the demise of
      Dr. Slump, I followed Dragon Ball until it became super
      repetitive somewhere around #12 in the compilations. Also,
      I own a copy of Ginka Tetsudou no Yoru and did see Hi no
      Tori in the theatre. I also saw Momotarou Joins the Army
      on late night television, and for sheer oddity value, I
      have Twilight of the Cockroaches on video tape. But, no
      I do not in general follow the same manga and anime as
      most folks on this side of the Pacific. Incidentally, do
      you know where I can get a copy of My Neighbor Totoro
      (or whatever it is called) on DVD? I saw part (but not
      all of it) at International House at Washington State
      University. (Incidentally, I did not follow Doraemon. I
      always got asked about that when folks found out that I
      was familiar with Ninja Hatori Kun. Yes. I looked at
      Doraemon at least once, but I could never really get into
      that one. ) I am also guilty of having a Manga introductions
      to Noh-Kyougen, and a bunch of other stuff.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
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    • Barbara Nostrand
      Lord Godric. The -na form is something else entirely. It marks uninflected words with adjectival meanings. If I recall correctly, a lot of these are Chinese.
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
        Lord Godric.

        The -na form is something else entirely. It marks uninflected
        words with adjectival meanings. If I recall correctly, a lot
        of these are Chinese. Apparently, (and I am going to duck as
        Baron Edward is currently in graduate school and learning all
        of this stuff while all I am doing is forgetting) -na in this
        case is an inflection of -da which you will recall is an
        existential auxiliary verb. The inflection appears to be
        rentaikei which puts the verb into an adjectival form. This
        allows for Chinese adjectives which lack proper inflection to
        be used in Japanese. -no on the other hand is a joshi which is
        used to mark a noun as "possessive" or otherwise modifying.

        Note. A joshi is usually called a "particle" in English texts
        on Japanese grammar. Rentaikei is one of several possible
        inflections for inflected words. We always used Japanese terms
        in grammar discussions in courses I have taken, so I do not
        know an English term for it.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
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        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Well, that s not far off, although more correctly it would be verbal adjectives and true adjectives There is a historical formation for what are now
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 3, 2000
          Joshua Badgley wrote:

          >
          > Well, my line of thinking ran mainly to the way that the adjectives are
          > split up: one of my professors in Japan liked to categorize them into
          > verb-type adjectives and noun-type adjectives.

          Well, that's not far off, although more correctly it would be "verbal
          adjectives" and "true adjectives"

          There is a historical formation for what are now "na-type adjectives" (i.e.,
          adjectives that require a "-na" before the noun they qualify, like "shizuka"
          [quiet] or "teinei" [polite] , becoming "shizuka-na hito" [quiet person] or
          "teinei-na hito" [polite person] ). These are called "keiyou doushi" (verbal
          adjectives). Historically, they all required the dantei doushi ("copula")
          following them. The copular ending, in shuushikei (sentence ending) form was
          "-nari." "Kono heya wa shizuka nari" Means "This room is quiet." To say "a
          quiet room" one said (in old Japanese) "shizuka-naru heiya." That naru is the
          copular "nari" in the rentaikei ("attributive") form.

          Since modern Japanese doesn't bother with many of those endings, and "nari"
          (itself a contraction of "ni ari") has long since been replaced with "da/de
          aru" as the copula, that rentaikei "naru" has become "na".

          True adjectives (keiyoushi) in Japanese didn't require copular ending (though
          some might tack a copula to the end of the sentence in a more polite/formal
          setting). The modern "utsukushii hito" (a pretty person) and "Kono hito wa
          utsukushii" (this person is pretty) uses the same form of the adjective and no
          copula. In classical Japanese, the rentaikei and shuushikei were different;
          "utsukushiki hito" is rentaikei while the shuushikei is "ka no hito wa
          utsukushi." Note the single "i" instead of the modern double.


          > Noun-type adjectives use
          > 'na' to modify something which has that quality, and nouns use 'no' to
          > modify something as being possessed of that noun.

          Well, I can understand trying to come up with a simple way to describe it, but
          I'm having trouble seeing what one has to do with the other. All adjectives in
          the appositive describe their quality to the noun they precede, regardless of
          whether the adjective uses "na."

          How is "takai tatemono" (tall building) syntactically or grammatically
          different from "burei na yatsu" (rude jerk)? They are both an adjective in
          appostition to a noun, "modifying" that noun.

          In fact, there is no difference between na and non-na adjectives in usage.

          It has to do with the historical form of the adjective. And in fact, that
          division just doesn't hold water. In fact, there is a class that can be either
          na-type OR normal, and has the exact same function/meaning; it's just a
          syntactical choice as to which the speaker/writer uses. "wakana bouzu" means
          "young kid" and so does "wakai/wakaki bouzu." Which one is "quality" and which
          is "possession"?

          Effingham
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