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Re: [SCA-JML] Zokumyo usage

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  • Nick starnes
    I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
      I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?

      *Bows on one knee*

      Hasekura

      JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
      On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

      > Masahige-dono,
      >
      > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
      > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
      > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
      > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
      >
      > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
      > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
      > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

      Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
      noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
      (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
      Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
      later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
      exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
      a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

      -Ii





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    • JL Badgley
      ... A) I take offense at the implication that we can t be historical and have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don t see how our
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 4, 2007
        On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
        >

        A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
        have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
        how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
        appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

        B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
        together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
        I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

        Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
        often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
        becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
        The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
        sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
        wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
        know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
        names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
        I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
        names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
        speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

        Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
        come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
        find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
        important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
        that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.


        -Ii Katsumori
      • Nick starnes
        Katsumori-dono, It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
          Katsumori-dono,

          It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

          Arigato Gozaimasu,

          Hasekura Masashige

          JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
          On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
          >

          A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
          have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
          how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
          appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

          B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
          together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
          I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

          Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
          often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
          becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
          The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
          sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
          wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
          know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
          names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
          I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
          names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
          speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

          Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
          come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
          find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
          important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
          that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.

          -Ii Katsumori





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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JL Badgley
          ... I m sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that historical != fun to the point of people labeling those of us interested in trying to be
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
            On 8/5/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
            >
            > Katsumori-dono,
            >
            > It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

            I'm sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that
            'historical != fun' to the point of people labeling those of us
            interested in trying to be more historical 'authenticity Nazis', a
            term I thoroughly abhor. Combined with some real world stress, I
            think that this all just culminated in an overreaction on my part.

            For what it is worth, I think you had the right idea. The 'Taroichi'
            name does sound right in English, and follows the basic rules... it
            isn't quite apparent that the 'ro' is actually 'rou', and you did a
            great job on the name, all things considered.

            'Taroichi' may be appropriate, in fact, but not with those particular
            characters. I just don't know of anything off-hand that would make it
            a passable name, but I wish I did.


            -Ii
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