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Re: [SCA-JML] Zokumyo usage

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  • JL Badgley
    ... Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I d like to just add to that by noting that Tarousaemon is the combination of a traditional zokumyo (Tarou) with a
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
      On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

      > Masahige-dono,
      >
      > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
      > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
      > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
      > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
      >
      > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
      > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
      > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

      Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
      noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
      (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
      Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
      later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
      exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
      a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

      -Ii
    • Nick starnes
      I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
        I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?

        *Bows on one knee*

        Hasekura

        JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
        On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

        > Masahige-dono,
        >
        > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
        > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
        > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
        > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
        >
        > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
        > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
        > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

        Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
        noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
        (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
        Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
        later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
        exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
        a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

        -Ii





        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JL Badgley
        ... A) I take offense at the implication that we can t be historical and have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don t see how our
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 4, 2007
          On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
          >

          A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
          have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
          how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
          appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

          B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
          together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
          I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

          Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
          often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
          becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
          The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
          sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
          wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
          know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
          names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
          I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
          names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
          speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

          Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
          come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
          find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
          important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
          that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.


          -Ii Katsumori
        • Nick starnes
          Katsumori-dono, It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
            Katsumori-dono,

            It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

            Arigato Gozaimasu,

            Hasekura Masashige

            JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
            On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
            >

            A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
            have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
            how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
            appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

            B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
            together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
            I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

            Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
            often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
            becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
            The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
            sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
            wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
            know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
            names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
            I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
            names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
            speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

            Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
            come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
            find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
            important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
            that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.

            -Ii Katsumori





            ---------------------------------
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • JL Badgley
            ... I m sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that historical != fun to the point of people labeling those of us interested in trying to be
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
              On 8/5/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
              >
              > Katsumori-dono,
              >
              > It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

              I'm sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that
              'historical != fun' to the point of people labeling those of us
              interested in trying to be more historical 'authenticity Nazis', a
              term I thoroughly abhor. Combined with some real world stress, I
              think that this all just culminated in an overreaction on my part.

              For what it is worth, I think you had the right idea. The 'Taroichi'
              name does sound right in English, and follows the basic rules... it
              isn't quite apparent that the 'ro' is actually 'rou', and you did a
              great job on the name, all things considered.

              'Taroichi' may be appropriate, in fact, but not with those particular
              characters. I just don't know of anything off-hand that would make it
              a passable name, but I wish I did.


              -Ii
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