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Re: [SCA-JML] Zokumyo usage

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  • Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson)
    ... Masahige-dono, Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
      Nick starnes wrote:
      >
      > Thank you for your input. Why do you say it "does not appear kosher"?
      > Is this because you have never come across this being done in your
      > research of Historical names or does it in some way break the "name
      > making rules" I ask this because the Kind people that have responded
      > seem to be unsure, not definitive, of the use. Just curious for my own
      > edification why this would not work because it fits the rules. Again,
      > thank you. Your input is most appreciated.
      >








      Masahige-dono,

      Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
      the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
      when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
      sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.

      In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
      a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
      1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit
      your purpose, or Matatarou (which means "Again, first son") but it won't
      sound like Zatoichi (actually, the kanji used for "ichi" in Zatoichi
      means market or fair, not first). The other instances of the historical
      use of "Tarou" show up as:

      Genkutarou
      Kentarou
      Kutarou
      Matatarou
      Yatarou
      Yogotarou
      Yotarou

      I looked at Hiraizumi (Effingham)-dono's site and checked the part where
      he was discussing male name construction and while he does not
      specifically say as much, in the examples he gives, you can see that the
      birth order of the name bearer is LAST. In the example of Saburojiro
      the second son (jiro) is listed after his father, the third son
      (saburo). Tarou being the indicator of your birth order, it would be
      listed last. (Note: Solveig has "Ichiro" as a modern era name. I do
      not know whether that is the case or not--that's not my area of study.
      But if you are referring to your father as a first-born, "Gen" sounds
      better: Gentarou, Genjirou, Gensaburo, etc. Gen means original.)

      So there's your answer. Tarou can be used by itself or as a suffix.
      Hope that helps.

      You might want to check with your local herald (or if you get to go to
      Pennsic, visit the Herald's booth there) and go through Solveig-dono's
      book, which can supplement the information on Hiraizumi-dono's site.

      Ki no Torahime
    • JL Badgley
      ... Takeda-dono s feelings mirror my own. The initial thought it s not kosher is a gut reaction, a filtering of the subconscious based on my own accumulated
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
        On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you for your input. Why do you say it "does not appear kosher"? Is this because you have never come across this being done in your research of Historical names or does it in some way break the "name making rules" I ask this because the Kind people that have responded seem to be unsure, not definitive, of the use. Just curious for my own edification why this would not work because it fits the rules. Again, thank you. Your input is most appreciated.
        >
        > Masashige
        >

        Takeda-dono's feelings mirror my own. The initial thought "it's not
        kosher" is a gut reaction, a filtering of the subconscious based on my
        own accumulated research and reading. However, examining it:

        When I see names put together like this, I can't think of an example
        off the top of my head where the post-fix 'rou' is on the first of the
        two. I'm thinking of names like Jizaburou, or Yonjirou. It is the
        second 'number' that takes precedence. You could theoretically say
        "Ta'ichirou", but I can't recall seeing those together. "Mataichirou"
        or "Matatarou" (Lit. 'Again, 1st Son') fit the rules as I've seen
        them. Later on, the '-rou' is often dropped, so I believe 'Mataichi'
        would be acceptable, but I'm not sure when the '-rou' actually started
        to be dropped.

        With that said, there are often things that surprise me, like 'Kin'
        being a kun'yomi for a character used in nanori.


        -Ii Katsumori
      • JL Badgley
        ... Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I d like to just add to that by noting that Tarousaemon is the combination of a traditional zokumyo (Tarou) with a
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
          On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

          > Masahige-dono,
          >
          > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
          > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
          > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
          > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
          >
          > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
          > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
          > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

          Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
          noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
          (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
          Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
          later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
          exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
          a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

          -Ii
        • Nick starnes
          I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
            I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?

            *Bows on one knee*

            Hasekura

            JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
            On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

            > Masahige-dono,
            >
            > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
            > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
            > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
            > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
            >
            > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
            > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
            > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

            Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
            noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
            (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
            Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
            later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
            exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
            a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

            -Ii





            ---------------------------------
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          • JL Badgley
            ... A) I take offense at the implication that we can t be historical and have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don t see how our
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 4, 2007
              On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
              >
              > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
              >

              A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
              have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
              how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
              appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

              B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
              together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
              I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

              Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
              often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
              becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
              The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
              sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
              wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
              know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
              names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
              I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
              names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
              speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

              Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
              come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
              find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
              important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
              that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.


              -Ii Katsumori
            • Nick starnes
              Katsumori-dono, It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
                Katsumori-dono,

                It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

                Arigato Gozaimasu,

                Hasekura Masashige

                JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
                >

                A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
                have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
                how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
                appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

                B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
                together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
                I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

                Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
                often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
                becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
                The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
                sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
                wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
                know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
                names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
                I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
                names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
                speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

                Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
                come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
                find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
                important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
                that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.

                -Ii Katsumori





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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JL Badgley
                ... I m sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that historical != fun to the point of people labeling those of us interested in trying to be
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
                  On 8/5/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Katsumori-dono,
                  >
                  > It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

                  I'm sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that
                  'historical != fun' to the point of people labeling those of us
                  interested in trying to be more historical 'authenticity Nazis', a
                  term I thoroughly abhor. Combined with some real world stress, I
                  think that this all just culminated in an overreaction on my part.

                  For what it is worth, I think you had the right idea. The 'Taroichi'
                  name does sound right in English, and follows the basic rules... it
                  isn't quite apparent that the 'ro' is actually 'rou', and you did a
                  great job on the name, all things considered.

                  'Taroichi' may be appropriate, in fact, but not with those particular
                  characters. I just don't know of anything off-hand that would make it
                  a passable name, but I wish I did.


                  -Ii
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