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Re: [SCA-JML] Zokumyo usage

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  • sigrune@aol.com
    ... From my experiance as well as Effingham s site, if you deisre to be a first son of a first son, that would be Matataro or Mataichiro. For some reason
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
      Nick writes:
      >To be honest I liked the phonetics of it. I am a fan of the
      >Zatoichi(Blind Swordsman) movies,Taroichi (same flow) and In
      >my mundane life i am the "First son of the First son" so i
      >thought it would work. And in practical application , it
      >would be easy for people to remember and pronounce.

      From my experiance as well as Effingham's site, if you deisre to be a first son of a first son, that would be Matataro or Mataichiro. For some reason combining the different forms of "1" does not appear kosher.

      -Takeda
    • Nick starnes
      Thank you for your input. Why do you say it does not appear kosher ? Is this because you have never come across this being done in your research of
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
        Thank you for your input. Why do you say it "does not appear kosher"? Is this because you have never come across this being done in your research of Historical names or does it in some way break the "name making rules" I ask this because the Kind people that have responded seem to be unsure, not definitive, of the use. Just curious for my own edification why this would not work because it fits the rules. Again, thank you. Your input is most appreciated.

        Masashige


        sigrune@... wrote:
        Nick writes:
        >To be honest I liked the phonetics of it. I am a fan of the
        >Zatoichi(Blind Swordsman) movies,Taroichi (same flow) and In
        >my mundane life i am the "First son of the First son" so i
        >thought it would work. And in practical application , it
        >would be easy for people to remember and pronounce.

        From my experiance as well as Effingham's site, if you deisre to be a first son of a first son, that would be Matataro or Mataichiro. For some reason combining the different forms of "1" does not appear kosher.

        -Takeda





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      • Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson)
        ... Masahige-dono, Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
          Nick starnes wrote:
          >
          > Thank you for your input. Why do you say it "does not appear kosher"?
          > Is this because you have never come across this being done in your
          > research of Historical names or does it in some way break the "name
          > making rules" I ask this because the Kind people that have responded
          > seem to be unsure, not definitive, of the use. Just curious for my own
          > edification why this would not work because it fits the rules. Again,
          > thank you. Your input is most appreciated.
          >








          Masahige-dono,

          Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
          the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
          when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
          sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.

          In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
          a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
          1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit
          your purpose, or Matatarou (which means "Again, first son") but it won't
          sound like Zatoichi (actually, the kanji used for "ichi" in Zatoichi
          means market or fair, not first). The other instances of the historical
          use of "Tarou" show up as:

          Genkutarou
          Kentarou
          Kutarou
          Matatarou
          Yatarou
          Yogotarou
          Yotarou

          I looked at Hiraizumi (Effingham)-dono's site and checked the part where
          he was discussing male name construction and while he does not
          specifically say as much, in the examples he gives, you can see that the
          birth order of the name bearer is LAST. In the example of Saburojiro
          the second son (jiro) is listed after his father, the third son
          (saburo). Tarou being the indicator of your birth order, it would be
          listed last. (Note: Solveig has "Ichiro" as a modern era name. I do
          not know whether that is the case or not--that's not my area of study.
          But if you are referring to your father as a first-born, "Gen" sounds
          better: Gentarou, Genjirou, Gensaburo, etc. Gen means original.)

          So there's your answer. Tarou can be used by itself or as a suffix.
          Hope that helps.

          You might want to check with your local herald (or if you get to go to
          Pennsic, visit the Herald's booth there) and go through Solveig-dono's
          book, which can supplement the information on Hiraizumi-dono's site.

          Ki no Torahime
        • JL Badgley
          ... Takeda-dono s feelings mirror my own. The initial thought it s not kosher is a gut reaction, a filtering of the subconscious based on my own accumulated
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
            On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thank you for your input. Why do you say it "does not appear kosher"? Is this because you have never come across this being done in your research of Historical names or does it in some way break the "name making rules" I ask this because the Kind people that have responded seem to be unsure, not definitive, of the use. Just curious for my own edification why this would not work because it fits the rules. Again, thank you. Your input is most appreciated.
            >
            > Masashige
            >

            Takeda-dono's feelings mirror my own. The initial thought "it's not
            kosher" is a gut reaction, a filtering of the subconscious based on my
            own accumulated research and reading. However, examining it:

            When I see names put together like this, I can't think of an example
            off the top of my head where the post-fix 'rou' is on the first of the
            two. I'm thinking of names like Jizaburou, or Yonjirou. It is the
            second 'number' that takes precedence. You could theoretically say
            "Ta'ichirou", but I can't recall seeing those together. "Mataichirou"
            or "Matatarou" (Lit. 'Again, 1st Son') fit the rules as I've seen
            them. Later on, the '-rou' is often dropped, so I believe 'Mataichi'
            would be acceptable, but I'm not sure when the '-rou' actually started
            to be dropped.

            With that said, there are often things that surprise me, like 'Kin'
            being a kun'yomi for a character used in nanori.


            -Ii Katsumori
          • JL Badgley
            ... Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I d like to just add to that by noting that Tarousaemon is the combination of a traditional zokumyo (Tarou) with a
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
              On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

              > Masahige-dono,
              >
              > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
              > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
              > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
              > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
              >
              > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
              > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
              > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

              Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
              noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
              (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
              Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
              later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
              exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
              a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

              -Ii
            • Nick starnes
              I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
                I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?

                *Bows on one knee*

                Hasekura

                JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

                > Masahige-dono,
                >
                > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
                > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
                > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
                > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
                >
                > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
                > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
                > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

                Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
                noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
                (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
                Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
                later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
                exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
                a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

                -Ii





                ---------------------------------
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JL Badgley
                ... A) I take offense at the implication that we can t be historical and have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don t see how our
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 4, 2007
                  On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
                  >

                  A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
                  have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
                  how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
                  appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

                  B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
                  together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
                  I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

                  Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
                  often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
                  becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
                  The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
                  sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
                  wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
                  know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
                  names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
                  I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
                  names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
                  speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

                  Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
                  come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
                  find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
                  important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
                  that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.


                  -Ii Katsumori
                • Nick starnes
                  Katsumori-dono, It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
                    Katsumori-dono,

                    It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

                    Arigato Gozaimasu,

                    Hasekura Masashige

                    JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                    On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
                    >

                    A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
                    have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
                    how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
                    appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

                    B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
                    together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
                    I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

                    Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
                    often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
                    becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
                    The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
                    sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
                    wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
                    know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
                    names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
                    I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
                    names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
                    speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

                    Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
                    come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
                    find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
                    important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
                    that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.

                    -Ii Katsumori





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                  • JL Badgley
                    ... I m sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that historical != fun to the point of people labeling those of us interested in trying to be
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
                      On 8/5/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Katsumori-dono,
                      >
                      > It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

                      I'm sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that
                      'historical != fun' to the point of people labeling those of us
                      interested in trying to be more historical 'authenticity Nazis', a
                      term I thoroughly abhor. Combined with some real world stress, I
                      think that this all just culminated in an overreaction on my part.

                      For what it is worth, I think you had the right idea. The 'Taroichi'
                      name does sound right in English, and follows the basic rules... it
                      isn't quite apparent that the 'ro' is actually 'rou', and you did a
                      great job on the name, all things considered.

                      'Taroichi' may be appropriate, in fact, but not with those particular
                      characters. I just don't know of anything off-hand that would make it
                      a passable name, but I wish I did.


                      -Ii
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