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Zokumyo usage

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  • vns2112
    I was trying to figure out a zokumyo and I liked Taroichi is this acceptable for First son of the First son And I did not see Hasekura on the Myoji
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 31, 2007
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      I was trying to figure out a zokumyo and I liked "Taroichi" is this
      acceptable for "First son of the First son" And I did not see
      Hasekura on the Myoji list. Can some one tell me what this translates
      to? *Bows Low*

      Arigato,

      Hasekura Masashige
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I doubt that it works, but I will think about it. Why not just be plain old Tarou? Or, for that matter, why not pick
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 2, 2007
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > I was trying to figure out a zokumyo and I liked "Taroichi" is this
        > acceptable for "First son of the First son" And I did not see
        > Hasekura on the Myoji list. Can some one tell me what this translates
        > to? *Bows Low*

        I doubt that it works, but I will think about it. Why not just be
        plain old Tarou?
        Or, for that matter, why not pick one of the ancient uji and use the
        short
        form of the uji name as a prefix for Tarou. Then again, is being the
        first son
        of a first son important to you?

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nick starnes
        Thank you , My Lady, for your response. To be honest I liked the phonetics of it. I am a fan of the Zatoichi(Blind Swordsman) movies,Taroichi (same flow) and
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
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          Thank you , My Lady, for your response. To be honest I liked the phonetics of it. I am a fan of the Zatoichi(Blind Swordsman) movies,Taroichi (same flow) and In my mundane life i am the "First son of the First son" so i thought it would work. And in practical application , it would be easy for people to remember and pronounce. So in your words "Think about it" please because i thought, from my study of the SengokuDaimyo site, that it fallowed the rules.

          Saburomono,

          Hasekura Masashige

          Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > I was trying to figure out a zokumyo and I liked "Taroichi" is this
          > acceptable for "First son of the First son" And I did not see
          > Hasekura on the Myoji list. Can some one tell me what this translates
          > to? *Bows Low*

          I doubt that it works, but I will think about it. Why not just be
          plain old Tarou?
          Or, for that matter, why not pick one of the ancient uji and use the
          short
          form of the uji name as a prefix for Tarou. Then again, is being the
          first son
          of a first son important to you?

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        • sigrune@aol.com
          ... From my experiance as well as Effingham s site, if you deisre to be a first son of a first son, that would be Matataro or Mataichiro. For some reason
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
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            Nick writes:
            >To be honest I liked the phonetics of it. I am a fan of the
            >Zatoichi(Blind Swordsman) movies,Taroichi (same flow) and In
            >my mundane life i am the "First son of the First son" so i
            >thought it would work. And in practical application , it
            >would be easy for people to remember and pronounce.

            From my experiance as well as Effingham's site, if you deisre to be a first son of a first son, that would be Matataro or Mataichiro. For some reason combining the different forms of "1" does not appear kosher.

            -Takeda
          • Nick starnes
            Thank you for your input. Why do you say it does not appear kosher ? Is this because you have never come across this being done in your research of
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
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              Thank you for your input. Why do you say it "does not appear kosher"? Is this because you have never come across this being done in your research of Historical names or does it in some way break the "name making rules" I ask this because the Kind people that have responded seem to be unsure, not definitive, of the use. Just curious for my own edification why this would not work because it fits the rules. Again, thank you. Your input is most appreciated.

              Masashige


              sigrune@... wrote:
              Nick writes:
              >To be honest I liked the phonetics of it. I am a fan of the
              >Zatoichi(Blind Swordsman) movies,Taroichi (same flow) and In
              >my mundane life i am the "First son of the First son" so i
              >thought it would work. And in practical application , it
              >would be easy for people to remember and pronounce.

              From my experiance as well as Effingham's site, if you deisre to be a first son of a first son, that would be Matataro or Mataichiro. For some reason combining the different forms of "1" does not appear kosher.

              -Takeda





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            • Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson)
              ... Masahige-dono, Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
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                Nick starnes wrote:
                >
                > Thank you for your input. Why do you say it "does not appear kosher"?
                > Is this because you have never come across this being done in your
                > research of Historical names or does it in some way break the "name
                > making rules" I ask this because the Kind people that have responded
                > seem to be unsure, not definitive, of the use. Just curious for my own
                > edification why this would not work because it fits the rules. Again,
                > thank you. Your input is most appreciated.
                >








                Masahige-dono,

                Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
                the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
                when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
                sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.

                In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
                a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
                1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit
                your purpose, or Matatarou (which means "Again, first son") but it won't
                sound like Zatoichi (actually, the kanji used for "ichi" in Zatoichi
                means market or fair, not first). The other instances of the historical
                use of "Tarou" show up as:

                Genkutarou
                Kentarou
                Kutarou
                Matatarou
                Yatarou
                Yogotarou
                Yotarou

                I looked at Hiraizumi (Effingham)-dono's site and checked the part where
                he was discussing male name construction and while he does not
                specifically say as much, in the examples he gives, you can see that the
                birth order of the name bearer is LAST. In the example of Saburojiro
                the second son (jiro) is listed after his father, the third son
                (saburo). Tarou being the indicator of your birth order, it would be
                listed last. (Note: Solveig has "Ichiro" as a modern era name. I do
                not know whether that is the case or not--that's not my area of study.
                But if you are referring to your father as a first-born, "Gen" sounds
                better: Gentarou, Genjirou, Gensaburo, etc. Gen means original.)

                So there's your answer. Tarou can be used by itself or as a suffix.
                Hope that helps.

                You might want to check with your local herald (or if you get to go to
                Pennsic, visit the Herald's booth there) and go through Solveig-dono's
                book, which can supplement the information on Hiraizumi-dono's site.

                Ki no Torahime
              • JL Badgley
                ... Takeda-dono s feelings mirror my own. The initial thought it s not kosher is a gut reaction, a filtering of the subconscious based on my own accumulated
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
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                  On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you for your input. Why do you say it "does not appear kosher"? Is this because you have never come across this being done in your research of Historical names or does it in some way break the "name making rules" I ask this because the Kind people that have responded seem to be unsure, not definitive, of the use. Just curious for my own edification why this would not work because it fits the rules. Again, thank you. Your input is most appreciated.
                  >
                  > Masashige
                  >

                  Takeda-dono's feelings mirror my own. The initial thought "it's not
                  kosher" is a gut reaction, a filtering of the subconscious based on my
                  own accumulated research and reading. However, examining it:

                  When I see names put together like this, I can't think of an example
                  off the top of my head where the post-fix 'rou' is on the first of the
                  two. I'm thinking of names like Jizaburou, or Yonjirou. It is the
                  second 'number' that takes precedence. You could theoretically say
                  "Ta'ichirou", but I can't recall seeing those together. "Mataichirou"
                  or "Matatarou" (Lit. 'Again, 1st Son') fit the rules as I've seen
                  them. Later on, the '-rou' is often dropped, so I believe 'Mataichi'
                  would be acceptable, but I'm not sure when the '-rou' actually started
                  to be dropped.

                  With that said, there are often things that surprise me, like 'Kin'
                  being a kun'yomi for a character used in nanori.


                  -Ii Katsumori
                • JL Badgley
                  ... Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I d like to just add to that by noting that Tarousaemon is the combination of a traditional zokumyo (Tarou) with a
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
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                    On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

                    > Masahige-dono,
                    >
                    > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
                    > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
                    > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
                    > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
                    >
                    > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
                    > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
                    > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

                    Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
                    noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
                    (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
                    Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
                    later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
                    exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
                    a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

                    -Ii
                  • Nick starnes
                    I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 3, 2007
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                      I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?

                      *Bows on one knee*

                      Hasekura

                      JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                      On 8/3/07, Ki no Torahime (Maria Gilson) <tace@...> wrote:

                      > Masahige-dono,
                      >
                      > Tarouichi (or Taroichi) sounds wrong because Tarou is usually used at
                      > the end of a name, not the beginning. You know how it is in English
                      > when someone says something that may be technically correct, but it
                      > sounds wrong? This is the feeling I think people are trying to convey.
                      >
                      > In Solveig-dono's NAME CONSTRUCTION IN MEDIEVAL JAPAN, Tarou shows up as
                      > a single name, and only once as a prefix, in the name Tarousaemon, dated
                      > 1600. There is an instance of Yoichitarou, from 1183, that might suit

                      Ki-dono has an excellent explanation. I'd like to just add to that by
                      noting that 'Tarousaemon' is the combination of a traditional zokumyo
                      (Tarou) with a title (Saemon... originally indicating someone in the
                      Left Gate Guards--it seems to have been handed out with frequency
                      later and just appended to names at some point, though I'm unsure
                      exactly when). Thus, you could follow this format, as long as you use
                      a title cum name like 'saemon', 'uemon', etc.

                      -Ii





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                    • JL Badgley
                      ... A) I take offense at the implication that we can t be historical and have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don t see how our
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 4, 2007
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                        On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
                        >

                        A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
                        have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
                        how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
                        appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

                        B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
                        together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
                        I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

                        Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
                        often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
                        becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
                        The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
                        sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
                        wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
                        know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
                        names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
                        I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
                        names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
                        speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

                        Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
                        come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
                        find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
                        important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
                        that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.


                        -Ii Katsumori
                      • Nick starnes
                        Katsumori-dono, It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
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                          Katsumori-dono,

                          It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

                          Arigato Gozaimasu,

                          Hasekura Masashige

                          JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                          On 8/3/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am very great full for every ones Learned input to the question but is this exact historical reenacting? I mean is there any leeway to this to where we can just have fun with it. I mean how many scholars are out there at events. I like the sound of it ,what about a nick name ?what would Taroichi mean or help me out with something that is close "2 syllable-Ichi " Does it have to have "ro" at the end?
                          >

                          A) I take offense at the implication that we can't be historical and
                          have fun. Some of us geeks find it to be very fun, and I don't see
                          how our discussions to try to help someone find a more historically
                          appropriate name affect you having fun in whatever way you want.

                          B) The suggestions were to help explain how Japanese names go
                          together. What someone uses and gets passed by the CoH is up to them.
                          I know someone who goes by the 'name' of 'Ronin'.

                          Regarding the meet of the issue: at some point, you do see '-rou'
                          often dropped from these kinds of names. I would liken it to 'Lisa'
                          becoming an actual name instead of just a nickname for 'Elisabeth'.
                          The problem is, unless we can show how it would be made, 'Taroichi'
                          sounds 'off' as a Japanese name. An example would be if someone
                          wanted to be called Robertsonhenry as an 'english' name. After all, I
                          know that 'Robert' is a name. I know that '-son' was a common postfix
                          names to indicate 'son of', and I know that 'Henry' is a common name.
                          I also know that, at least by the 20th century, you find combination
                          names (Billy-Ray comes to mind). That doesn't mean any English
                          speaker will find 'Robertsonhenry' as a natural name.

                          Now, it may be possible that there is a legitimate 'Taro' that could
                          come before 'ichi' without being odd, but I would be very surprised to
                          find it being the 'Tarou' that was asked about. If the meaning is
                          important, 'Mataichi' would be better. It gets the 4 syllable count
                          that was asked for, and rhymes with 'Zatoichi'.

                          -Ii Katsumori





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                        • JL Badgley
                          ... I m sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that historical != fun to the point of people labeling those of us interested in trying to be
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 5, 2007
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                            On 8/5/07, Nick starnes <vns2112@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Katsumori-dono,
                            >
                            > It troubles me greatly that my question offended you. This, of course, would never have been my intention. I apologize if the way I wrote it sounded sarcastic or snide. I was frustrated because I intended to be Historical and have a name that I liked. I did not come up with it on a whim, I thought about it and studied at length the rules and possibilities and to have it shot down deflated me because I put so much effort in to it. I thought I had something solid. I am truly thankful for your comments and respect your input. Please do not let this hinder any future involvement in your answering my questions.

                            I'm sorry myself. I am afraid I have seen too many times that
                            'historical != fun' to the point of people labeling those of us
                            interested in trying to be more historical 'authenticity Nazis', a
                            term I thoroughly abhor. Combined with some real world stress, I
                            think that this all just culminated in an overreaction on my part.

                            For what it is worth, I think you had the right idea. The 'Taroichi'
                            name does sound right in English, and follows the basic rules... it
                            isn't quite apparent that the 'ro' is actually 'rou', and you did a
                            great job on the name, all things considered.

                            'Taroichi' may be appropriate, in fact, but not with those particular
                            characters. I just don't know of anything off-hand that would make it
                            a passable name, but I wish I did.


                            -Ii
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