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RE: [SCA-JML] A question of Titles

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  • --- M.
    ... Just thought I d give my two cents on the matter-- according to what I understand of Japanese history, these titles, by Masamune s time, were ceremonial
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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      >Did he give himself this title holding on to some tradition? Was this
      >from the Puppet Ashikaga Shogunate? Did the Daimyo of the Sengoku era
      >pay any attention to the Shogunate? That is before it was abolished My
      >Nobunaga Of course. For that mater Date Masamune thrived in the
      >Momoyama period so Who would have given him this Title?

      Just thought I'd give my two cents on the matter-- according to what I
      understand of Japanese history, these titles, by Masamune's time, were
      ceremonial (as you said), but still technically the perogative of the court
      to grant, I suppose if you petitioned them/paid them enough money. Though I
      guess you could just assume a title...correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't
      Saito Dosan do just that?.

      I'm not sure when imperial governorships stopped being actual appointments,
      though. I do know, though, that in the Edo period, the title of most of the
      successive generations of Date clan daimyo held the same title-- Mutsu no
      Kami. They also had the hereditary right to use the Matsudaira surname,
      though that was an honor conferred by the Tokugawa shogunate. So, for
      instance, Date Yoshikuni, the daimyo of Sendai-han up to 1868 or so, was
      formally known as Matsudaira Mutsu-no-kami.

      For those of you with access to JSTOR, Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi's article on
      imperial sovereignty titled "In Name Only" talks about some of these issues.
      Incidentally, Date Masamune at some point held the title of Chunagon (Middle
      Counselor), though I'm not sure when.

      However, some court titles ending in "kami" were not governorships: for
      instance, "Genba no Kami." "Kami" in the case of governorship is written
      with the kanji that means "to protect," but the kami of Genba no Kami is the
      character alternately read "kashira," which can mean "head" or "leader." I'm
      not sure what "Genba no Kami" means, though. "Nui no Kami" is written with
      the same "kami," and I believe it was the title of the head of the court
      needlework bureau.

      -M.

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    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Echizen nokami and Mutsu nokami are both imperial governor titles. However, these were mostly status markers by the
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > In a previous post on Ranks ,I asked if "____no-Kami" equated to
        > Daimyo, I was told that this was a Govt. title=Governer and did not
        > have any worth during the Sengoku-jidai era, but in my reading I found
        > that Date Masamune held the Title ,Echizen no-Kami and Mutsu no-Kami.

        Echizen nokami and Mutsu nokami are both imperial governor titles.
        However, these were mostly status markers by the time of the Sengogku
        period. Shugo was a bakufu title which was also associated with the
        provinces, and it had greater economic and political value.

        > I am just curious as to who gave this title in a Country ruled by
        > Daimyo?

        You need to understand that the imperial government never really
        packed up and went home. It stuck around all through the middle
        ages.

        > Did he give himself this title holding on to some tradition? Was this
        > from the Puppet Ashikaga Shogunate? Did the Daimyo of the Sengoku era
        > pay any attention to the Shogunate? That is before it was abolished My
        > Nobunaga Of course. For that mater Date Masamune thrived in the
        > Momoyama period so Who would have given him this Title?

        I realy don't know who would give him such a title. Technically,
        depending
        on the kanji it is written with, it sounds like an imperial title.
        Since it is
        attached to the name of a province, it is not a free form. -nosuke, -
        uemon,
        and -zaemon eventually became free forms, but to the best of my
        knowledge -nokami never became a free form.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nick starnes
        Thank you for the lesson. But am not sure what you mean by free form Zeamon nosuke Solveig Throndardottir wrote: Noble Cousin!
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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          Thank you for the lesson. But am not sure what you mean by free form "Zeamon" "nosuke"

          Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote: Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > In a previous post on Ranks ,I asked if "____no-Kami" equated to
          > Daimyo, I was told that this was a Govt. title=Governer and did not
          > have any worth during the Sengoku-jidai era, but in my reading I found
          > that Date Masamune held the Title ,Echizen no-Kami and Mutsu no-Kami.

          Echizen nokami and Mutsu nokami are both imperial governor titles.
          However, these were mostly status markers by the time of the Sengogku
          period. Shugo was a bakufu title which was also associated with the
          provinces, and it had greater economic and political value.

          > I am just curious as to who gave this title in a Country ruled by
          > Daimyo?

          You need to understand that the imperial government never really
          packed up and went home. It stuck around all through the middle
          ages.

          > Did he give himself this title holding on to some tradition? Was this
          > from the Puppet Ashikaga Shogunate? Did the Daimyo of the Sengoku era
          > pay any attention to the Shogunate? That is before it was abolished My
          > Nobunaga Of course. For that mater Date Masamune thrived in the
          > Momoyama period so Who would have given him this Title?

          I realy don't know who would give him such a title. Technically,
          depending
          on the kanji it is written with, it sounds like an imperial title.
          Since it is
          attached to the name of a province, it is not a free form. -nosuke, -
          uemon,
          and -zaemon eventually became free forms, but to the best of my
          knowledge -nokami never became a free form.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... -zaemon and -nosuke eventually appear as free forms in personal names. What this means is that they became freely
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!
            > Thank you for the lesson. But am not sure what you mean by free
            > form "Zeamon" "nosuke"
            -zaemon and -nosuke eventually appear as "free forms" in personal
            names. What this means is that they became freely adoptable.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • JL Badgley
            ... Kami appears to be a kun yomi, or native Japanese, word, from what I can tell. When they imported the Chinese system of titles they used the various
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 2, 2007
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              On 7/1/07, --- M. <patriot014@...> wrote:
              > However, some court titles ending in "kami" were not governorships: for
              > instance, "Genba no Kami." "Kami" in the case of governorship is written
              > with the kanji that means "to protect," but the kami of Genba no Kami is the
              > character alternately read "kashira," which can mean "head" or "leader." I'm
              > not sure what "Genba no Kami" means, though. "Nui no Kami" is written with
              > the same "kami," and I believe it was the title of the head of the court
              > needlework bureau.

              'Kami' appears to be a kun'yomi, or native Japanese, word, from what I
              can tell. When they imported the Chinese system of titles they used
              the various Chinese kanji for the titles, but 'kami' was still the
              'head' person in many of the organizations, despite how it was
              spelled.

              I'm not sure if there is a relationship, but I notice that 'kami' can
              mean 'god/spirit', 'upper', or 'head (of a group)', among other
              things. I've often wondered if these aren't all from the same root
              word, linguistically.


              -Ii
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! Alas, all of my Japanese linguistics books appear to be in storage at the moment. Also, as I will be forced to relocate very
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 2, 2007
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                Ii dono!

                Greetings from Solveig! Alas, all of my Japanese linguistics books
                appear to be in storage at the moment. Also, as I will be forced to
                relocate very soon, things are much more likely to go into storage
                than to come out of storage for some time.

                Regardless, you might check out the books by Roy Andrew Miller
                or Susumu Kono. (Note. These names are from memory and may
                not be accurate.)

                While I do have my copy of Phonology of 8th Century Japanese
                out on the shelf, that will not help answer your current question.

                However, please remember that kami also means "hair" and "paper".
                The various kanji used in titles appear to be consistently read as
                "nokami". However, there are a few other headman titles which
                appear to be rather older.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar





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