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A question of Titles

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  • vns2112
    In a previous post on Ranks ,I asked if ____no-Kami equated to Daimyo, I was told that this was a Govt. title=Governer and did not have any worth during the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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      In a previous post on Ranks ,I asked if "____no-Kami" equated to
      Daimyo, I was told that this was a Govt. title=Governer and did not
      have any worth during the Sengoku-jidai era, but in my reading I found
      that Date Masamune held the Title ,Echizen no-Kami and Mutsu no-Kami.
      I am just curious as to who gave this title in a Country ruled by
      Daimyo?
      Did he give himself this title holding on to some tradition? Was this
      from the Puppet Ashikaga Shogunate? Did the Daimyo of the Sengoku era
      pay any attention to the Shogunate? That is before it was abolished My
      Nobunaga Of course. For that mater Date Masamune thrived in the
      Momoyama period so Who would have given him this Title?
    • --- M.
      ... Just thought I d give my two cents on the matter-- according to what I understand of Japanese history, these titles, by Masamune s time, were ceremonial
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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        >Did he give himself this title holding on to some tradition? Was this
        >from the Puppet Ashikaga Shogunate? Did the Daimyo of the Sengoku era
        >pay any attention to the Shogunate? That is before it was abolished My
        >Nobunaga Of course. For that mater Date Masamune thrived in the
        >Momoyama period so Who would have given him this Title?

        Just thought I'd give my two cents on the matter-- according to what I
        understand of Japanese history, these titles, by Masamune's time, were
        ceremonial (as you said), but still technically the perogative of the court
        to grant, I suppose if you petitioned them/paid them enough money. Though I
        guess you could just assume a title...correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't
        Saito Dosan do just that?.

        I'm not sure when imperial governorships stopped being actual appointments,
        though. I do know, though, that in the Edo period, the title of most of the
        successive generations of Date clan daimyo held the same title-- Mutsu no
        Kami. They also had the hereditary right to use the Matsudaira surname,
        though that was an honor conferred by the Tokugawa shogunate. So, for
        instance, Date Yoshikuni, the daimyo of Sendai-han up to 1868 or so, was
        formally known as Matsudaira Mutsu-no-kami.

        For those of you with access to JSTOR, Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi's article on
        imperial sovereignty titled "In Name Only" talks about some of these issues.
        Incidentally, Date Masamune at some point held the title of Chunagon (Middle
        Counselor), though I'm not sure when.

        However, some court titles ending in "kami" were not governorships: for
        instance, "Genba no Kami." "Kami" in the case of governorship is written
        with the kanji that means "to protect," but the kami of Genba no Kami is the
        character alternately read "kashira," which can mean "head" or "leader." I'm
        not sure what "Genba no Kami" means, though. "Nui no Kami" is written with
        the same "kami," and I believe it was the title of the head of the court
        needlework bureau.

        -M.

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      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Echizen nokami and Mutsu nokami are both imperial governor titles. However, these were mostly status markers by the
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > In a previous post on Ranks ,I asked if "____no-Kami" equated to
          > Daimyo, I was told that this was a Govt. title=Governer and did not
          > have any worth during the Sengoku-jidai era, but in my reading I found
          > that Date Masamune held the Title ,Echizen no-Kami and Mutsu no-Kami.

          Echizen nokami and Mutsu nokami are both imperial governor titles.
          However, these were mostly status markers by the time of the Sengogku
          period. Shugo was a bakufu title which was also associated with the
          provinces, and it had greater economic and political value.

          > I am just curious as to who gave this title in a Country ruled by
          > Daimyo?

          You need to understand that the imperial government never really
          packed up and went home. It stuck around all through the middle
          ages.

          > Did he give himself this title holding on to some tradition? Was this
          > from the Puppet Ashikaga Shogunate? Did the Daimyo of the Sengoku era
          > pay any attention to the Shogunate? That is before it was abolished My
          > Nobunaga Of course. For that mater Date Masamune thrived in the
          > Momoyama period so Who would have given him this Title?

          I realy don't know who would give him such a title. Technically,
          depending
          on the kanji it is written with, it sounds like an imperial title.
          Since it is
          attached to the name of a province, it is not a free form. -nosuke, -
          uemon,
          and -zaemon eventually became free forms, but to the best of my
          knowledge -nokami never became a free form.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nick starnes
          Thank you for the lesson. But am not sure what you mean by free form Zeamon nosuke Solveig Throndardottir wrote: Noble Cousin!
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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            Thank you for the lesson. But am not sure what you mean by free form "Zeamon" "nosuke"

            Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote: Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > In a previous post on Ranks ,I asked if "____no-Kami" equated to
            > Daimyo, I was told that this was a Govt. title=Governer and did not
            > have any worth during the Sengoku-jidai era, but in my reading I found
            > that Date Masamune held the Title ,Echizen no-Kami and Mutsu no-Kami.

            Echizen nokami and Mutsu nokami are both imperial governor titles.
            However, these were mostly status markers by the time of the Sengogku
            period. Shugo was a bakufu title which was also associated with the
            provinces, and it had greater economic and political value.

            > I am just curious as to who gave this title in a Country ruled by
            > Daimyo?

            You need to understand that the imperial government never really
            packed up and went home. It stuck around all through the middle
            ages.

            > Did he give himself this title holding on to some tradition? Was this
            > from the Puppet Ashikaga Shogunate? Did the Daimyo of the Sengoku era
            > pay any attention to the Shogunate? That is before it was abolished My
            > Nobunaga Of course. For that mater Date Masamune thrived in the
            > Momoyama period so Who would have given him this Title?

            I realy don't know who would give him such a title. Technically,
            depending
            on the kanji it is written with, it sounds like an imperial title.
            Since it is
            attached to the name of a province, it is not a free form. -nosuke, -
            uemon,
            and -zaemon eventually became free forms, but to the best of my
            knowledge -nokami never became a free form.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... -zaemon and -nosuke eventually appear as free forms in personal names. What this means is that they became freely
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 1, 2007
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!
              > Thank you for the lesson. But am not sure what you mean by free
              > form "Zeamon" "nosuke"
              -zaemon and -nosuke eventually appear as "free forms" in personal
              names. What this means is that they became freely adoptable.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JL Badgley
              ... Kami appears to be a kun yomi, or native Japanese, word, from what I can tell. When they imported the Chinese system of titles they used the various
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 2, 2007
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                On 7/1/07, --- M. <patriot014@...> wrote:
                > However, some court titles ending in "kami" were not governorships: for
                > instance, "Genba no Kami." "Kami" in the case of governorship is written
                > with the kanji that means "to protect," but the kami of Genba no Kami is the
                > character alternately read "kashira," which can mean "head" or "leader." I'm
                > not sure what "Genba no Kami" means, though. "Nui no Kami" is written with
                > the same "kami," and I believe it was the title of the head of the court
                > needlework bureau.

                'Kami' appears to be a kun'yomi, or native Japanese, word, from what I
                can tell. When they imported the Chinese system of titles they used
                the various Chinese kanji for the titles, but 'kami' was still the
                'head' person in many of the organizations, despite how it was
                spelled.

                I'm not sure if there is a relationship, but I notice that 'kami' can
                mean 'god/spirit', 'upper', or 'head (of a group)', among other
                things. I've often wondered if these aren't all from the same root
                word, linguistically.


                -Ii
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! Alas, all of my Japanese linguistics books appear to be in storage at the moment. Also, as I will be forced to relocate very
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 2, 2007
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                  Ii dono!

                  Greetings from Solveig! Alas, all of my Japanese linguistics books
                  appear to be in storage at the moment. Also, as I will be forced to
                  relocate very soon, things are much more likely to go into storage
                  than to come out of storage for some time.

                  Regardless, you might check out the books by Roy Andrew Miller
                  or Susumu Kono. (Note. These names are from memory and may
                  not be accurate.)

                  While I do have my copy of Phonology of 8th Century Japanese
                  out on the shelf, that will not help answer your current question.

                  However, please remember that kami also means "hair" and "paper".
                  The various kanji used in titles appear to be consistently read as
                  "nokami". However, there are a few other headman titles which
                  appear to be rather older.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar





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