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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: question about the Three Sacred Treasures

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  • Tracie Ellis
    Thank you Solveig for pulling your book off it s shelf! And thank everyone for responding to the question - I now have lots to look for! *bows* Miriel ... --
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
      Thank you Solveig for pulling your book off it's shelf!

      And thank everyone for responding to the question - I now have lots to look for!

      *bows*

      Miriel

      On 6/29/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
      > Noble Cousins!
      >
      > Greetings from Solveig! Oh all right, I pulled my copy of Holton off
      > the shelf.
      >
      > The three sacred treasures are:
      >
      > 1. The Yata Mirror
      > 2. The Yasakani Curved Jewels
      > 3. The Kusanagi Sword
      >
      > Holton (p. 5) claims that the Yata Mirror is the most revered of the
      > three treasures. The reason for this is obvious as it is directly
      > related to the mirror used to lure Amaterasu no Mikoto out of the cave.
      >
      > Supposably, the original Yata Mirror has been enshrined at the the
      > Daijingu of Ise since 29 BCE. Thus, the one used for enthronement
      > ceremonies is a copy. This replica of the Yata Mirror has been
      > enshrined in the Naishi-dokoro of the Imperial Palace since the close
      > of the Heian period (p. 40). The replica mirror was damaged by fire
      > in 960 CE. (p. 41). The Naishi-dokoro burned down in 1005 CE, but the
      > badly damaged replica mirror was recovered (p. 41). The copy of the
      > Yata Mirror was damaged again in 1040 CE. This time only a small
      > piece of the original was recovered. This fragment continues to be
      > handed down. The replica sword and mirror along with the jewels were
      > supposed to have been present at the battle of Dan no Ura (1185 CE).
      > Supposably, the replica mirror and the original jewels were recovered
      > from the battle. (p. 42) Supposably, the sword which is used for
      > enthronement ceremonies today dates from before 1210 CE.
      >
      > The Yasanagi Sword was supposably taken from the tail of a dragon. It
      > has supposably been enshrined at the Atsuta Shrine in Owari since
      > shortly after the death of emperor Yamato-takeru-no-mikoto.
      >
      > The replica sword and jewels are stored in the Kenji no Ma in the
      > Imperial Palace and are personally presented to the emperor.
      >
      > Regardless, official Japanese history holds that a replica sword was
      > lost at Dan no Ura, but that all of the original treasures are still
      > intact and in their assigned locations. Of these, only the jewels are
      > in the possession of the emperor. The emperor is supposed to have the
      > original jewels, a damaged fragment of a copy of the original mirror,
      > and a substitute sword which is not even supposed to be a copy.
      > Supposably, Amaterasu no Mikoto reveled which sword to use as a
      > substitute.
      >
      > Your Humble Servant
      > Solveig Throndardottir
      > Amateur Scholar
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
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      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      "There but for the grace of a demented deity, go I" - Tales of the
      Folly, by A. Fesler
      "I messed with the Captain of the Folly, and all I got was this lousy
      T-shirt" - A. Fesler

      If you want handmade, ask an artist, if you want perfection, get it
      from a machine. T. Ellis
    • deanna.baran
      ... her flowers ? ... that such things as jewelry and ornaments were very heavily restricted, at least from Nara to Meiji. The Japanese seemed to be very fond
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 2 11:26 AM
        > I would also like to know more about ancient Japanese jewelry in
        > general. What did a lady wear back then when she put on
        her "flowers"?
        > I haven't seen any examples of necklaces or earrings in portraits, but
        > they must have used their "7 treasures from the sea" for something
        > fabulous, right?


        ---It might depend on the time period, but I'm under the impression
        that such things as jewelry and ornaments were very heavily restricted,
        at least from Nara to Meiji. The Japanese seemed to be very fond of
        sumptuary laws. :o) For example, anyone beneath the sixth rank was
        forbidden to wear gold or silver, except on their armor, swords, and
        official costumes. So if you were well-born, you might be important
        enough to merit a gold hairpin. ;o)

        There are Haniwa and Asuka figurines that wear Han-dynasty earrings and
        necklaces. You get lots of magatama-necklaces in tombs as well-- but I
        would suspect those had strong religious connotations, rather than
        being purely ornamental.

        http://www.tnm.jp/en/servlet/Con?
        pageId=B01&processId=00&mansion_id=M3&dispdate=2007/05/30

        has a small picture of the pieces of a magatama bracelet from the Yayoi
        period.

        http://www.miho.or.jp/booth/html/artcon/00005295e.htm

        has both kudatama (cylindrical beads) and magatama (comma-shaped beads).

        To compensate for those restrictions, a woman would convey her rank and
        prestige through her clothing, rather than through accessories. I'm
        most interested in the Heian period, so using that as an example, a
        woman would wear colors that lower-ranking women were restricted from
        wearing... or they would wear many layers of robes of such a quality
        that a less wealthy woman could not afford. They were very particular
        about shades of color as well; I seem to remember an episode in the
        Pillow Book where the ladies all laughed at someone where one of her
        robes was a shade off of the color it should have been. :o) I do know
        that mo could not only be dyed or embroidered, but also embellished
        with mother-of-pearl, semiprecious jewels, gold or silver foil, tiny
        mirrors, etc.

        Once you get into later periods, the sumptuary laws start getting more
        restrictive. But the emphasis is always on clothes and materials and
        subtle details, rather than on accessories as we think of them. :o)

        Good luck!
        -Deanna
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... You do not see much in the way of jewelry in premodern Japan period. There are some odd hats especially early on.
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 2 6:11 PM
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!
          > ---It might depend on the time period, but I'm under the impression
          > that such things as jewelry and ornaments were very heavily
          > restricted,
          > at least from Nara to Meiji.
          You do not see much in the way of jewelry in premodern Japan period.
          There are some odd hats especially early on. Also, if you go way way
          back, then you have the necklaces. But, that's pretty much it.
          > The Japanese seemed to be very fond of
          > sumptuary laws. :o) For example, anyone beneath the sixth rank was
          > forbidden to wear gold or silver, except on their armor, swords, and
          > official costumes. So if you were well-born, you might be important
          > enough to merit a gold hairpin. ;o)
          Actual examples involve cap ranks which restricted the construction,
          colour, and ornamentation of hats and the colour and composition of
          of official robes. I don't know about hairpin regulation.
          > There are Haniwa and Asuka figurines that wear Han-dynasty earrings
          > and
          > necklaces. You get lots of magatama-necklaces in tombs as well-- but I
          > would suspect those had strong religious connotations, rather than
          > being purely ornamental.
          This is also rather unfortunately, prehistoric. You do not see much
          in the
          way of this sort of thing once you start getting into the historical
          era.
          To compensate for those restrictions, a woman would convey her rank and
          > prestige through her clothing, rather than through accessories. I'm
          > most interested in the Heian period, so using that as an example, a
          > woman would wear colors that lower-ranking women were restricted from
          > wearing... or they would wear many layers of robes of such a quality
          > that a less wealthy woman could not afford.
          The quality, quantity, and tasteful arrangement of the robes are the
          big deal.
          Actually, I think it was Sei Shonagon that got all miffed about a
          lowlife
          doing a dance of thanksgiving.
          > robes was a shade off of the color it should have been. :o) I do know
          > that mo could not only be dyed or embroidered, but also embellished
          > with mother-of-pearl, semiprecious jewels, gold or silver foil, tiny
          > mirrors, etc.
          Are you sure about the mirrors? Mirrors are 1) rather sacred and 2)
          being of polished bronze don't work very well on clothing.
          Once you get into later periods, the sumptuary laws start getting more
          > restrictive. But the emphasis is always on clothes and materials and
          > subtle details, rather than on accessories as we think of them. :o)
          As I wrote earlier, there were restrictions on hats. The hats worn by
          the emperor could be rather extreme.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • deanna.baran
          ... ranks and robes and protocol, but I haven t found anything thorough yet... any suggestions? :o) ... The Traditional Arts of Japan: A Complete Illustrated
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 3 7:49 AM
            > Actual examples involve cap ranks which restricted the construction,
            > colour, and ornamentation of hats and the colour and composition of
            > of official robes.

            ---I've been looking for some good books in English on the subject of
            ranks and robes and protocol, but I haven't found anything thorough
            yet... any suggestions? :o)


            > Are you sure about the mirrors? Mirrors are 1) rather sacred and 2)
            > being of polished bronze don't work very well on clothing.

            ---The information re: gold, hairpins, and mirrors came from:
            The Traditional Arts of Japan: A Complete Illustrated Guide
            H. Batterson Boger
            Doubleday & Co., Inc.
            Garden City, New York 1964
            pp. 91, 289.

            Looking at what it says about mirrors (pp. 97-98), it says the
            Chinese had been casting bronze ones from at least the beginning of
            the Han Dynasty (which began 206 BC), and they were introduced to
            Japan at the end of the Han Dynasty (AD 220). Those dates may have
            changed based on subsequent archaeological evidence. :o) Post-
            Kofun/post-650, everywhere but Hokkaido stops being prehistoric. :o)
            By the time you get to Nara, they had developed mirrors that were
            artistically Japanese in shape and design, rather than just copying
            Chinese mirrors. They have interesting shapes (squares, six or eight
            lobes, eight or twelve-pointed), and are often decorated with birds,
            flowers, and landscapes. By the time you get to Heian period, it's
            distinct enough to be called a wakyo, or Japanese mirror, and they've
            made progress in becoming thinner. During Kamakura, they're often
            decorated in the e-uta/picture-poem style. And the ekagami, or
            handled-mirror, developed in Muromachi times, but became popular in
            Momoyama.

            While I don't disagree that the mirror has tremendous religious
            significance, especially to the Shinto, it seems that it had an
            undeniably secular usage as well.

            When it said "tiny mirrors", though, I can't help but wonder if they
            meant "tiny pieces of polished bronze." If full-sized mirrors are
            appearing in lobed shapes, it makes me think of a flower-shape... and
            I could see how, say, a mo appliqued with small, thin, polished
            and/or etched bronze blossoms could be considered attractive. I don't
            think it would be very technologically difficult; I'd be more curious
            as to whether they were only applied for wearing, and then removed
            afterwards, to keep from getting oxidization stains on the fabric.
            But yes, I agree, I wish it had been more clear, and possibly
            illustrated. :o)

            Thanks!
            -Deanna
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Learn Japanese? That is not quite as flip as it sounds. If you learn Japanese then you aren t dependent upon other
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 4 6:13 AM
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!
              > ---I've been looking for some good books in English on the subject of
              > ranks and robes and protocol, but I haven't found anything thorough
              > yet... any suggestions? :o)
              Learn Japanese? That is not quite as flip as it sounds. If you learn
              Japanese then you aren't dependent upon other folks getting around
              to translating the stuff you are interested in. However, you do become
              dependent upon 1) books available from U.S. libraries and 2) books
              which can be purchased from Japan. (Now that one is a truly heavy
              addiction. Pun intended.

              On a slightly more helpful note, there is an English Language guide
              to classical Japanese literature which has a lot of the stuff that you
              are interested in. However, the down side is that the last time I
              looked for it, I found a different book. So, I am not in a good position
              to point you to the correct volume. And, no, I'm not thinking of the
              Shining Prince guidebook. This is a much bigger book.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar





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