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Re: [SCA-JML] japanese bards?????

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  • jake curda
    just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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      just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess that
      heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

      thank you all,
      Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

      JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
      On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
      > Noble Cousin!
      >
      > Greetings from Solveig!
      >
      > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
      > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
      > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
      >
      > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
      > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
      > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
      > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
      > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

      I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
      period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
      double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
      name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
      the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

      > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
      > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
      > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
      > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
      > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
      > However, I sort of doubt that.

      I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
      at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
      are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
      to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
      Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
      hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
      hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

      Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
      the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
      you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
      other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
      feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
      'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
      in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
      Japanese traditional culture, of course.

      -Ii





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    • jake curda
      after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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        after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the Stepps?????.......

        Yagyu.....

        jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
        just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess
        that
        heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

        thank you all,
        Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

        JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
        On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        >
        > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
        > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
        > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
        >
        > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
        > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
        > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
        > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
        > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

        I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
        period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
        double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
        name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
        the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

        > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
        > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
        > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
        > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
        > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
        > However, I sort of doubt that.

        I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
        at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
        are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
        to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
        Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
        hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
        hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

        Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
        the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
        you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
        other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
        feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
        'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
        in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
        Japanese traditional culture, of course.

        -Ii

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      • JL Badgley
        It would be Houkan of the Steppes , in my opinion, or The Houkan Bard of the Steppes . I would even recommend The Kusahara Bard (kusahara means grassy
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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          It would be 'Houkan of the Steppes', in my opinion, or 'The Houkan Bard of
          the Steppes'. I would even recommend 'The Kusahara Bard' (kusahara means
          'grassy plain'--and today means steppe. It sounds perfectly reasonable to
          me, I'm not sure what Solveig-dono's problem with it is).

          If you want to have the 'no' I would suggest a full title, and then it would
          be something like Kusahara no Houkan--think of 'no' as an "'s"--Kusahara's
          Bard.

          Still, it may be better to have most of the title in English.

          -Ii

          On 6/8/07, jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
          >
          > after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best
          > describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it
          > would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese
          > equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no
          > Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the
          > Stepps?????.......
          >
          > Yagyu.....
          >
          >
          > jake curda <jakecurda@... <jakecurda%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
          > just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my
          > kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when
          > last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but
          > something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to
          > the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an
          > earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The
          > Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from
          > pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of
          > great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am
          > looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the
          > name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes
          > mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one
          > "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but
          > once again, I confess
          > that
          > heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the
          > process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is
          > spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I
          > think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......
          >
          > thank you all,
          > Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the
          > Kingdom of Ansteorra
          >
          > JL Badgley <tatsushu@... <tatsushu%40gmail.com>> wrote:
          > On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@... <nostrand%40acm.org>>
          > wrote:
          > > Noble Cousin!
          > >
          > > Greetings from Solveig!
          > >
          > > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
          > > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
          > > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
          > >
          > > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
          > > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
          > > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
          > > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
          > > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.
          >
          > I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
          > period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
          > double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
          > name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
          > the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).
          >
          > > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
          > > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
          > > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
          > > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
          > > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
          > > However, I sort of doubt that.
          >
          > I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
          > at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
          > are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
          > to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
          > Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
          > hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
          > hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).
          >
          > Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
          > the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
          > you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
          > other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
          > feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
          > 'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
          > in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
          > Japanese traditional culture, of course.
          >
          > -Ii
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
          > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
          > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Nesmith
          ...Steppes no Houkan would be the correct order Moritake jake curda wrote: after carefull reading i
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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            ...Steppes no Houkan would be the correct order

            Moritake

            jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote: after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the Stepps?????.......

            Yagyu.....

            jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
            just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess
            that
            heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

            thank you all,
            Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

            JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
            On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
            > Noble Cousin!
            >
            > Greetings from Solveig!
            >
            > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
            > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
            > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
            >
            > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
            > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
            > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
            > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
            > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

            I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
            period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
            double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
            name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
            the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

            > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
            > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
            > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
            > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
            > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
            > However, I sort of doubt that.

            I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
            at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
            are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
            to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
            Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
            hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
            hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

            Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
            the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
            you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
            other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
            feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
            'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
            in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
            Japanese traditional culture, of course.

            -Ii

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          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The problem with pretense is not that I disbelieved that you were a bard to your barony. I suspected that that was the
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! The problem with pretense is not that I
              disbelieved that you were a bard to your barony.
              I suspected that that was the case. The problem is to avoid pretense
              to an imperial title. Regardless, finding a
              good way for you to say bard of your barony is separate from the name
              question. I think that the version that
              sounds sort of Chinese also sounds sort of official. So, you might
              want to use that. The problem comes in more
              along the lines of attaching it to the name of the Barony. I doubt
              that this is necessary. You have a job, not a title.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yes, we understand that. However, it is still not a title. It is still a job after a fashion. The same thing is true
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > jake curda <jakecurda@...>
                > wrote: after carefull reading i
                > belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my
                > profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it
                > would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese
                > equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no
                > Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of
                > the Stepps?????.......

                Yes, we understand that. However, it is still not a title. It is
                still a job after a fashion. The same thing is true for whoever is
                the current heavy list champion. Basically, at the end of your term,
                the job goes poof.

                Hokan is perfectly fine. However, if you want to emphasize your
                leadership role, then you might want to consider -shi
                (teacher) or --kan (minister) to the end of the thing. I would
                recommend -shi over -kan as it roughly translates to
                "master" in the sense of "dance master" &c. If you decide to stick -
                shi on the end the S probably turns into a J due
                to coarticulation of adjacent sounds.

                Finally, you really do not need to stick the baronial name onto the
                thing. However, if you decide to do so, the baronial name should
                probably bear the suffix -kuni (country). This is the suffix commonly
                found in the names of pre-modern Japanese
                provinces. Provincial names were often shortened to the on'yomi of
                the initial kanji and "koku" the on'yomi for kuni.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar





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