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RE: japanese bards?????

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  • Electric Wolf
    2. japanese bards????? Posted by: jake curda jakecurda@yahoo.com jakecurda Date: Wed Jun 6, 2007 5:26 am ((PDT)) Greetings again, ok, so this has ben bugging
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 6 10:11 AM
      2. japanese bards?????
      Posted by: "jake curda" jakecurda@... jakecurda
      Date: Wed Jun 6, 2007 5:26 am ((PDT))

      Greetings again,

      ok, so this has ben bugging me for a little while.......what would the
      Japanese name be for a bard.....at one time I was told that it was Omidassu,
      but i can not call that sourse 100% reliable........I am a bard myself, have
      ben since before I felt the call to take up a Japanese persona, and the fire
      of that is still here.....but I want to know what a Japanese bard
      was......or the closest thing to it..........help please....again......

      Always in service,
      Yagyu Masamori Nobunagga, Tittle bard to the Baroney of the Stepps in the
      kingdom of Ansteorra......


      ---------------------------------
      I myself have been digging for quite some time.
      Even here I could not find answers but recently I did find a couple of
      terms...

      Taikomoto (drum bearer) is a term for a male geisha.
      Storyteller, singer, joke teller, musician, overall entertainer.
      There is another word I can't remember right now all my notes are at home.
      The position is being revived by one of them in Japan right now, I believe I
      found
      a link to his site on Wikipedia.
      Again, I have more notes at home and will send them tonight.

      Okabe

      > --
      > David "Wolf" Mc.
      > http://www.geocities.com/elecwolf/
      > "Nullus anxietas"



      --
      David "Wolf" Mc.
      http://www.geocities.com/elecwolf/
      "Nullus anxietas"


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Do you aspire to be a blind biwa player? If so, then you might have had a pseudo monastic name or something like
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 6 12:02 PM
        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > ok, so this has ben bugging me for a little while.......what
        > would the Japanese name be for a bard.....at one time I was told
        > that it was Omidassu, but i can not call that sourse 100%
        > reliable........I am a bard myself, have ben since before I felt
        > the call to take up a Japanese persona, and the fire of that is
        > still here.....but I want to know what a Japanese bard was......or
        > the closest thing to it..........help please....again......

        Do you aspire to be a blind biwa player? If so, then you might have
        had a pseudo monastic name or something like that.
        Basically, an art name. This is a category all by itself in Japanese
        onomastic.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Are you looking for a name or a Japanese word that describes what you do? Reading the postings in the order I did had me
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 6 12:04 PM
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! Are you looking for a name or a Japanese word
          that
          describes what you do? Reading the postings in the order I did had me
          automatically thinking about personal names. You might also tell folks
          about what sort of bardic activity you engage in.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David
          I attempted to reply to this earlier but it looks like it bounced or something... I found Taikomochi or Houkan. Basically a male geisha. Storyteller, joke
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 6 9:15 PM
            I attempted to reply to this earlier but it looks like it bounced or
            something...

            I found Taikomochi or Houkan.
            Basically a male geisha.
            Storyteller, joke teller, musician, all around entertainer.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taikomochi
            There is currently a gentleman in Japan who is trying to revive this
            traditional profession and I imagine he'd be happy to talk about it.
            If I were brave enough to attempt to contact him...
            http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/taikomochi.html

            Good luck and I look forward to sharing some stories around the
            campfire with you.
            Okabe

            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings again,
            >
            > ok, so this has ben bugging me for a little while.......what would
            the Japanese name be for a bard.....at one time I was told that it was
            Omidassu, but i can not call that sourse 100% reliable........I am a
            bard myself, have ben since before I felt the call to take up a
            Japanese persona, and the fire of that is still here.....but I want to
            know what a Japanese bard was......or the closest thing to
            it..........help please....again......
            >
            > Always in service,
            > Yagyu Masamori Nobunagga, Tittle bard to the Baroney of the Stepps
            in the kingdom of Ansteorra......
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > TV dinner still cooling?
            > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Has your keyboard developed a stutter? The double s should be a single s. Dasu, means to put out, send out, &c. and
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 6 9:25 PM
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > what do we think of Omidassu no Hanashite........and yes...Omidassu
              > was given to me becouse they were recounnters of history and
              > lineage........I have put Omidassu no Hannashite together to draw
              > the picture of a story teller of history and lineage......as my
              > bardic performances seem to focus on the oral tale and poetry of
              > our past and legends.......so sumitted for your thoughs on the
              > list......Omidassu no Hannashite

              Has your keyboard developed a stutter? The double s should be a
              single s. Dasu, means to put out, send out, &c. and is
              a transitive verb related to the intransitive verb deru. Also, aren't
              you really thinking of "omoidasu" which basically means to recall.

              Why are you looking for a word for this? It's much more messy than
              people so far have implied. There were of course hobbyists. And there
              of course pros in several of these art forms.

              If you are looking to be a traveling storyteller, then those guys
              that pack a biwa are the sort of folks you are looking for.

              As people have already pointed out, there are a LOT of more or less
              performance/poetry/story-telling/&c. specialties in Japan. For that
              matter, there are several specialties just within the Noh theatre.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ellen Badgley
              Yagyu-dono, Okay, re-checking past messages, here s an idea for a job title for you: 草原の語部 Kusahara (or Kusahara-shu) no Kataribe Reciter of History
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 6 10:10 PM
                Yagyu-dono,

                Okay, re-checking past messages, here's an idea for a job title for you:


                Kusahara (or Kusahara-shu) no Kataribe
                Reciter of History and Legend of the (Barony of the) Grass-covered Plains

                Kusahara or "grass plain" is the closest I could find to "steppe".
                Kusahara-shu would be the "state/land of the grass-covered plains". (Our
                own Barony of Stierbach in Atlantia we translate as "Ushikawa-shu" -- Barony
                of Ox River-- in a similar way.)

                Together with your chosen name it would be something like "Kusahara-shu no
                Kataribe, Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga". (You could then append your court rank,
                etc. to make it even more of an impressive Japanese mouthful.)

                - Abe Akirakeiko



                On 6/7/07, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
                >
                > I concur with Ii-dono. The phrase "omoidasu no hanashite" definitely
                > doesn't sounds like a name, but above and beyond that, it just doesn't sound
                > like a historical title. (If you've got documentation of its historical
                > use, I'd be very interested in seeing it!) If you just want a literal
                > translation of "rememberer of stories" that's fine-- it works as a basic,
                > literal SCA job title. If you want something a bit more, though, there is
                > room for picking a name/title that itself has a real, historical story
                > behind it (which to me is always more fun, and impressive, especially when
                > it comes to telling your own persona story).
                >
                > The more I look up "Kataribe" the closer it sounds to the type of thing
                > you are describing. The term "kataribe" itself is basically a job title
                > meaning "reciter" (specifically in the sense of historical records, myths,
                > legends, etc.) but as with many other professions in Japan, the job was
                > hereditary within certain clans or families. The most famous kataribe was
                > Hieda no Are, who lived early on (I don't know what time period you would
                > like to concentrate on). If you were interested in picking an appropriate
                > Japanese name to correspond to the profession, you could be a Hieda-- I
                > don't have the sources in front of me, but it certainly sounds like the kind
                > of name you could find even in late period! (Heck, as a Hieda you could
                > claim descent from Ame-no-uzume-no-mikoto, one of the more interesting
                > goddesses in the Japanese "pantheon"!) Otherwise you could keep your
                > current (very nice) name and take on the job title of "Kataribe" instead of
                > "omoidasu no hanashite".
                >
                > I will see if I can find some documentation for kataribe in later period.
                > In the meantime, here is some information on Hieda no Are (http://ias.berkeley.edu/orias/hero/yamato/characters_yamato.html
                > ):
                >
                > *Hieda no Are:* (Late 7th and early 8th century) Hieda no Are is famous
                > for reciting from memory the *teiki *(imperial records, genealogies of the
                > rulers) and other records and legends of antiquity to O no Yasumaro, the
                > compiler of *Kojiki*. In the preface to this work, Yasumaro states that
                > Hieda no Are was a *toneri*, or attendant, in the service of Emperor Temmu
                > and that he "could repeat orally whatever met his eye, and whatever struck
                > his ears was indelibly impressed in his heart (Philippi, p. 41-42)."
                > Scholars disagree as to whether Hieda no Are was a man or a woman and as to
                > whether Hieda no Are recited everything from memory or, as is more likely,
                > also had recourse to written documents. Hieda no Are is said to belong to
                > the Sarume-no-kimi clan; this clan, descended from the goddess
                > Ame-no-uzume-no-mikoto, who was among those who lured Amaterasu out of the
                > cave, was known for its hereditary female shamans who performed songs,
                > dances, and other rites. On the other hand, the office of *toneri*suggests a man. Regardless, Hieda no Are's prominent role in the compilation
                > of *Kojiki* illustrates that during this period memory and oral recitation
                > were considered authoritative sources, less likely than written records to
                > be marred by errors and falsehoods. Some sources claim that Hieda no Are was
                > blind, as were many reciters (see kataribe) both in this early period and
                > continuing on through the medieval period.
                >
                > - Abe Akirakeiko
                >
                > On 6/6/07, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I hate to say this, but that doesn't sound like a name. That sounds
                > > like
                > > saying "Hi, my name is 'I tell stories about remembering'".
                > >
                > > I may have missed it... why not Yagyu Nobunaga? That is a perfectly good
                > > name. As an artist you can use 'Shincho' as the reading and get Yagyu
                > > Shincho (Sinifying the name makes sound more elite).
                > >
                > > If you want a whole new name, I'd recommend Kataribe .... it fits the
                > > general pattern of a name, and you can make a case that it is
                > > legitimate,
                > > although I don't know if it survived into or past the Heian period.
                > >
                > > You could also take a period title, like:
                > >
                > > Yagyu Utaryo-no-X Nobunaga
                > >
                > > In this case, X can be:
                > > -kami (Jr. 5th Rank)
                > > -suke (Sr. 6th Rank)
                > > -daiin (Sr. 7th Rank)
                > > -shoin (Jr. 7th Rank)
                > > -taikyoku/-shokyoku (upper and lower Jr. 8th rank)
                > >
                > > Or there's 'On-no-hakase', which is 'Doctor of Music'.
                > >
                > > You could go one step further and figure out who the hereditary families
                > > of
                > > the Uta Ryo were.
                > >
                > > -Ii
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I doubt that this really works. If for no other reason that be did not belong to baronies or such like. ...
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 7 1:02 AM
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > Okay, re-checking past messages, here's an idea for a job title for
                  > you:
                  >
                  >
                  > Kusahara (or Kusahara-shu) no Kataribe
                  > Reciter of History and Legend of the (Barony of the) Grass-covered
                  > Plains

                  I doubt that this really works. If for no other reason that be did
                  not belong
                  to baronies or such like.

                  > Kusahara or "grass plain" is the closest I could find to "steppe".

                  Unfortunately, I haven't seen a lot of steppes in Japan.

                  > Kusahara-shu would be the "state/land of the grass-covered
                  > plains". (Our
                  > own Barony of Stierbach in Atlantia we translate as "Ushikawa-shu"
                  > -- Barony
                  > of Ox River-- in a similar way.)

                  No. No. No. Shu isn't really used this way. About the only places
                  that end in
                  shu are in the United States. There is some justification for using -
                  kuni or
                  -koku, but not -shu. If you are looking for modern Japanese concepts, a
                  barony is more like say a -gun which is a rural district. Or maybe
                  they can
                  be equated with the ancient provinces, but as I recall these are called
                  kuni as in "kuni no miyatsuko". There is an additional problem with
                  Ushikawa in that it is the name of a river. This tends to need an
                  additional
                  toponymic element for the place where people live and have their fields.
                  There are some hybrid finals such as -tsu in Otsu.

                  > Together with your chosen name it would be something like "Kusahara-
                  > shu no
                  > Kataribe, Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga". (You could then append your
                  > court rank,
                  > etc. to make it even more of an impressive Japanese mouthful.)

                  Incidentally, I applaud the use of -be names just as much as I
                  applaud the use
                  of uji names. However, the concept is not quite correct here. The -be
                  are
                  ancient monopoly corporations many of which were created by the emperor.
                  Further, a minority of members of a -be might be actually engaged in the
                  trade associated with the -be. To make things worse, there were -be
                  which
                  were established simply to endow something or other. Further, -be
                  names like
                  the uji names are slotted somewhat differently. Finally, attaching
                  what you are
                  hoping to be an occupational byname to a baronial name is just
                  plain presumptive.

                  As already mentioned. You should not be stacking nanori which is
                  precisely
                  what Masamori Nobunaga is doing.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jake curda
                  ok...to clarify a bit........I am looking for somethign to be used like a tittle, and not a name.........I like the name Yagyu and want to keep
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 7 5:51 AM
                    ok...to clarify a bit........I am looking for somethign to be used like a tittle, and not a name.........I like the name Yagyu and want to keep it..........also directing to Solveig.......sorry, when the word Dasu was introduced to me it was introduced as dassu, so thank you for the correction, it is duely noated and filed away.....and second.....when working with the Hearalds of my kingdom, one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-woods" familes were stacking nanori....and being that durring this period the Yagyu were just about that, we thought it would add to the persona.......the name as I was last informed a few days ago was good and about to be approved.....we have been working on it for some time.........

                    Thank you all for your wisdom and input......i think we may just be able to come up with something that I can use yet.......

                    Yagyu Masamori Nobunagga, Tittel bard of the Barony of the Stepps in the kingdom of Ansteorra.

                    Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > Okay, re-checking past messages, here's an idea for a job title for
                    > you:
                    >
                    >
                    > Kusahara (or Kusahara-shu) no Kataribe
                    > Reciter of History and Legend of the (Barony of the) Grass-covered
                    > Plains

                    I doubt that this really works. If for no other reason that be did
                    not belong
                    to baronies or such like.

                    > Kusahara or "grass plain" is the closest I could find to "steppe".

                    Unfortunately, I haven't seen a lot of steppes in Japan.

                    > Kusahara-shu would be the "state/land of the grass-covered
                    > plains". (Our
                    > own Barony of Stierbach in Atlantia we translate as "Ushikawa-shu"
                    > -- Barony
                    > of Ox River-- in a similar way.)

                    No. No. No. Shu isn't really used this way. About the only places
                    that end in
                    shu are in the United States. There is some justification for using -
                    kuni or
                    -koku, but not -shu. If you are looking for modern Japanese concepts, a
                    barony is more like say a -gun which is a rural district. Or maybe
                    they can
                    be equated with the ancient provinces, but as I recall these are called
                    kuni as in "kuni no miyatsuko". There is an additional problem with
                    Ushikawa in that it is the name of a river. This tends to need an
                    additional
                    toponymic element for the place where people live and have their fields.
                    There are some hybrid finals such as -tsu in Otsu.

                    > Together with your chosen name it would be something like "Kusahara-
                    > shu no
                    > Kataribe, Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga". (You could then append your
                    > court rank,
                    > etc. to make it even more of an impressive Japanese mouthful.)

                    Incidentally, I applaud the use of -be names just as much as I
                    applaud the use
                    of uji names. However, the concept is not quite correct here. The -be
                    are
                    ancient monopoly corporations many of which were created by the emperor.
                    Further, a minority of members of a -be might be actually engaged in the
                    trade associated with the -be. To make things worse, there were -be
                    which
                    were established simply to endow something or other. Further, -be
                    names like
                    the uji names are slotted somewhat differently. Finally, attaching
                    what you are
                    hoping to be an occupational byname to a baronial name is just
                    plain presumptive.

                    As already mentioned. You should not be stacking nanori which is
                    precisely
                    what Masamori Nobunaga is doing.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    ---------------------------------
                    Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
                    with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • chasrmartin
                    Taikomochi sounds like the guy who beats on the rice with a sledge during New Years. (Which is my favorite part of preparing for New Years.) Just for fun,
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 7 10:11 AM
                      "Taikomochi" sounds like the guy who beats on the rice with a sledge
                      during New Years.

                      (Which is my favorite part of preparing for New Years.)

                      Just for fun, here's wikipedia on biwa (which is effectively the same
                      as a p'i p'a, but not the same as p'i p'a duck, which tastes much
                      better but is hard to tune.)

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biwa

                      Does anyone know what the Japanese name for an erhu is?
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 7 10:55 AM
                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                        > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                        > woods" familes were stacking nanori....

                        Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                        nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                        common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                        something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                        to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                        Since you mentioned that your name was about to be approved, I am
                        curious as to when the paperwork went in as it does not appear on any
                        kingdom Letter of Intent since November. Further, names and armory
                        that far back have already been acted upon by Laurel. This means that
                        your proposed name is not on the verge of approval. I also checked
                        all of the Letters of Acceptance and Return going back to January of
                        2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                        and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                        their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                        has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                        spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                        However, I sort of doubt that.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yay! The Wikipedia article you found is pretty much accurate. You really do have to check Wikipedia articles.
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 7 11:19 AM
                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!

                          > I found Taikomochi or Houkan. Basically a male geisha.

                          Yay! The Wikipedia article you found is pretty much accurate.
                          You really do have to check Wikipedia articles. Basically,
                          Daijirin agrees with you and even gives "dangeisha" (male geisha)
                          as a synonym. Basically, you win.

                          > Storyteller, joke teller, musician, all around entertainer.

                          The description in Daijirin goes on to say that they were entertainers
                          at drinking parties. You should understand that these tended to be
                          free-lance professionals. However, I suppose that they can be
                          retained. Certainly, Kurosawa appeared to think so when he made
                          Ran.

                          Finally, "Houkan" sounds much more official than "Taikomochi".

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • jrwences
                          ... Probably the closest analogous Japanese instrument (as opposed to a Japanese word for the Chinese instrument) is the kokyu. It resembles a small shamisen
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 7 11:57 AM
                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "chasrmartin" <chasrmartin@...> wrote:

                            > Does anyone know what the Japanese name for an erhu is?
                            >
                            Probably the closest analogous Japanese instrument (as opposed to a
                            Japanese word for the Chinese instrument) is the kokyu. It resembles a
                            small shamisen played with a bow.

                            See the image at:
                            http://ericgolub.com/photo/kokyo.htm

                            Wikipedia suggests that the Japanese name for the erhu is "niko."
                          • JL Badgley
                            ... I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a double nanori or if
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 8 6:14 AM
                              On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                              > Noble Cousin!
                              >
                              > Greetings from Solveig!
                              >
                              > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                              > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                              > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                              >
                              > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                              > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                              > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                              > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                              > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                              I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                              period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                              double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                              name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                              the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

                              > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                              > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                              > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                              > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                              > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                              > However, I sort of doubt that.

                              I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                              at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                              are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                              to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                              Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                              hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                              hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

                              Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                              the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                              you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                              other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                              feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                              'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                              in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                              Japanese traditional culture, of course.

                              -Ii
                            • jake curda
                              just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 8 2:31 PM
                                just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess that
                                heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

                                thank you all,
                                Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

                                JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                                On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                > Noble Cousin!
                                >
                                > Greetings from Solveig!
                                >
                                > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                >
                                > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                                I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

                                > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                > However, I sort of doubt that.

                                I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

                                Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                Japanese traditional culture, of course.

                                -Ii





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                              • jake curda
                                after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 8 4:23 PM
                                  after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the Stepps?????.......

                                  Yagyu.....

                                  jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
                                  just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess
                                  that
                                  heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

                                  thank you all,
                                  Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

                                  JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                                  On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                  > Noble Cousin!
                                  >
                                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                                  >
                                  > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                  > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                  > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                  >
                                  > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                  > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                  > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                  > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                  > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                                  I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                  period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                  double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                  name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                  the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

                                  > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                  > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                  > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                  > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                  > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                  > However, I sort of doubt that.

                                  I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                  at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                  are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                  to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                  Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                  hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                  hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

                                  Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                  the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                  you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                  other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                  feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                  'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                  in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                  Japanese traditional culture, of course.

                                  -Ii

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                                • JL Badgley
                                  It would be Houkan of the Steppes , in my opinion, or The Houkan Bard of the Steppes . I would even recommend The Kusahara Bard (kusahara means grassy
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jun 8 4:36 PM
                                    It would be 'Houkan of the Steppes', in my opinion, or 'The Houkan Bard of
                                    the Steppes'. I would even recommend 'The Kusahara Bard' (kusahara means
                                    'grassy plain'--and today means steppe. It sounds perfectly reasonable to
                                    me, I'm not sure what Solveig-dono's problem with it is).

                                    If you want to have the 'no' I would suggest a full title, and then it would
                                    be something like Kusahara no Houkan--think of 'no' as an "'s"--Kusahara's
                                    Bard.

                                    Still, it may be better to have most of the title in English.

                                    -Ii

                                    On 6/8/07, jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best
                                    > describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it
                                    > would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese
                                    > equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no
                                    > Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the
                                    > Stepps?????.......
                                    >
                                    > Yagyu.....
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > jake curda <jakecurda@... <jakecurda%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                                    > just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my
                                    > kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when
                                    > last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but
                                    > something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to
                                    > the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an
                                    > earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The
                                    > Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from
                                    > pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of
                                    > great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am
                                    > looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the
                                    > name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes
                                    > mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one
                                    > "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but
                                    > once again, I confess
                                    > that
                                    > heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the
                                    > process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is
                                    > spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I
                                    > think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......
                                    >
                                    > thank you all,
                                    > Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the
                                    > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                    >
                                    > JL Badgley <tatsushu@... <tatsushu%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                                    > On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@... <nostrand%40acm.org>>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > Noble Cousin!
                                    > >
                                    > > Greetings from Solveig!
                                    > >
                                    > > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                    > > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                    > > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                    > >
                                    > > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                    > > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                    > > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                    > > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                    > > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.
                                    >
                                    > I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                    > period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                    > double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                    > name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                    > the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).
                                    >
                                    > > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                    > > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                    > > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                    > > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                    > > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                    > > However, I sort of doubt that.
                                    >
                                    > I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                    > at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                    > are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                    > to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                    > Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                    > hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                    > hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).
                                    >
                                    > Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                    > the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                    > you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                    > other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                    > feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                    > 'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                    > in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                    > Japanese traditional culture, of course.
                                    >
                                    > -Ii
                                    >
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                                    > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
                                    >
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                                    >
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                                  • David Nesmith
                                    ...Steppes no Houkan would be the correct order Moritake jake curda wrote: after carefull reading i
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jun 8 4:55 PM
                                      ...Steppes no Houkan would be the correct order

                                      Moritake

                                      jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote: after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the Stepps?????.......

                                      Yagyu.....

                                      jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
                                      just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess
                                      that
                                      heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

                                      thank you all,
                                      Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

                                      JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                                      On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                      > Noble Cousin!
                                      >
                                      > Greetings from Solveig!
                                      >
                                      > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                      > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                      > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                      >
                                      > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                      > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                      > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                      > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                      > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                                      I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                      period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                      double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                      name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                      the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

                                      > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                      > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                      > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                      > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                      > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                      > However, I sort of doubt that.

                                      I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                      at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                      are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                      to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                      Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                      hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                      hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

                                      Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                      the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                      you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                      other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                      feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                      'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                      in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                      Japanese traditional culture, of course.

                                      -Ii

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                                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The problem with pretense is not that I disbelieved that you were a bard to your barony. I suspected that that was the
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jun 8 6:28 PM
                                        Noble Cousin!

                                        Greetings from Solveig! The problem with pretense is not that I
                                        disbelieved that you were a bard to your barony.
                                        I suspected that that was the case. The problem is to avoid pretense
                                        to an imperial title. Regardless, finding a
                                        good way for you to say bard of your barony is separate from the name
                                        question. I think that the version that
                                        sounds sort of Chinese also sounds sort of official. So, you might
                                        want to use that. The problem comes in more
                                        along the lines of attaching it to the name of the Barony. I doubt
                                        that this is necessary. You have a job, not a title.

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yes, we understand that. However, it is still not a title. It is still a job after a fashion. The same thing is true
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jun 8 6:53 PM
                                          Noble Cousin!

                                          Greetings from Solveig!

                                          > jake curda <jakecurda@...>
                                          > wrote: after carefull reading i
                                          > belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my
                                          > profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it
                                          > would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese
                                          > equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no
                                          > Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of
                                          > the Stepps?????.......

                                          Yes, we understand that. However, it is still not a title. It is
                                          still a job after a fashion. The same thing is true for whoever is
                                          the current heavy list champion. Basically, at the end of your term,
                                          the job goes poof.

                                          Hokan is perfectly fine. However, if you want to emphasize your
                                          leadership role, then you might want to consider -shi
                                          (teacher) or --kan (minister) to the end of the thing. I would
                                          recommend -shi over -kan as it roughly translates to
                                          "master" in the sense of "dance master" &c. If you decide to stick -
                                          shi on the end the S probably turns into a J due
                                          to coarticulation of adjacent sounds.

                                          Finally, you really do not need to stick the baronial name onto the
                                          thing. However, if you decide to do so, the baronial name should
                                          probably bear the suffix -kuni (country). This is the suffix commonly
                                          found in the names of pre-modern Japanese
                                          provinces. Provincial names were often shortened to the on'yomi of
                                          the initial kanji and "koku" the on'yomi for kuni.

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar





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