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RE: japanese bards?????

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  • Electric Wolf
    2. japanese bards????? Posted by: jake curda jakecurda@yahoo.com jakecurda Date: Wed Jun 6, 2007 5:26 am ((PDT)) Greetings again, ok, so this has ben bugging
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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      2. japanese bards?????
      Posted by: "jake curda" jakecurda@... jakecurda
      Date: Wed Jun 6, 2007 5:26 am ((PDT))

      Greetings again,

      ok, so this has ben bugging me for a little while.......what would the
      Japanese name be for a bard.....at one time I was told that it was Omidassu,
      but i can not call that sourse 100% reliable........I am a bard myself, have
      ben since before I felt the call to take up a Japanese persona, and the fire
      of that is still here.....but I want to know what a Japanese bard
      was......or the closest thing to it..........help please....again......

      Always in service,
      Yagyu Masamori Nobunagga, Tittle bard to the Baroney of the Stepps in the
      kingdom of Ansteorra......


      ---------------------------------
      I myself have been digging for quite some time.
      Even here I could not find answers but recently I did find a couple of
      terms...

      Taikomoto (drum bearer) is a term for a male geisha.
      Storyteller, singer, joke teller, musician, overall entertainer.
      There is another word I can't remember right now all my notes are at home.
      The position is being revived by one of them in Japan right now, I believe I
      found
      a link to his site on Wikipedia.
      Again, I have more notes at home and will send them tonight.

      Okabe

      > --
      > David "Wolf" Mc.
      > http://www.geocities.com/elecwolf/
      > "Nullus anxietas"



      --
      David "Wolf" Mc.
      http://www.geocities.com/elecwolf/
      "Nullus anxietas"


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Do you aspire to be a blind biwa player? If so, then you might have had a pseudo monastic name or something like
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > ok, so this has ben bugging me for a little while.......what
        > would the Japanese name be for a bard.....at one time I was told
        > that it was Omidassu, but i can not call that sourse 100%
        > reliable........I am a bard myself, have ben since before I felt
        > the call to take up a Japanese persona, and the fire of that is
        > still here.....but I want to know what a Japanese bard was......or
        > the closest thing to it..........help please....again......

        Do you aspire to be a blind biwa player? If so, then you might have
        had a pseudo monastic name or something like that.
        Basically, an art name. This is a category all by itself in Japanese
        onomastic.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Are you looking for a name or a Japanese word that describes what you do? Reading the postings in the order I did had me
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! Are you looking for a name or a Japanese word
          that
          describes what you do? Reading the postings in the order I did had me
          automatically thinking about personal names. You might also tell folks
          about what sort of bardic activity you engage in.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • deanna.baran
          Congratulations on your accomplishment. :o) I was quite impressed by the calibre of performances in the Steppes competition! :o) Without a good dictionary at
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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            Congratulations on your accomplishment. :o) I was quite impressed by
            the calibre of performances in the Steppes competition! :o)

            Without a good dictionary at hand, I think "omoidasu" is related to
            recollection and memory. I don't know if it's used in the sense of an
            occupation, but it seems more verblike. I'm sure I'll be corrected if
            I'm wrong. :o)

            Japanese history has such a colorful variety of extremely specialized
            storytellers. :o)

            Koshaku has its roots in the transmitting historical stories to Heian
            nobility, but eventually evolved to include literature as well,
            evolved to become less formal, and the koshakushi's audiences
            eventually included the commoners.

            Shigin is the chanting of Chinese poetry. Sometimes it's done solo,
            and sometimes in a group. It has its roots in kanshi--- it's my
            understanding that in Heian times, if you referred to shi/poetry, you
            referred to kanshi (Chinese-language poetry written by Japanese).

            Kamishibai has either late Heian/early Kamakura roots in Buddhist
            temples. The gaito kamishibaiya would tell morality stories
            illustrated by emaki/emakimono/illustrated scrolls.

            Biwa (Japanese lutes) reached Japan from China during the Nara period,
            and biwa hoshi ("lute priests) would accompany themselves while
            performing recitations. One popular piece is the Heike Monogatari. If
            you've seen Kwaidan, Hoichi the Earless is a biwa hoshi in action. :o)
            I think this may be post-period, though, but given the antiquity of
            the biwa, I'm curious as to what it may have evolved from.

            Those are probably not very helpful for developing persona, per se, or
            even for entertaining people casually. :o) Much Japanese singing and
            storytelling grates on unaccustomed Western ears. Pacing and
            presentation are very different as well. :o) It's sort of like
            watching kyudo (Japanese archery)... it's interesting if you know what
            to expect, but if someone doesn't know the culture and the context and
            what to look for, they get bored because it takes five minutes to
            shoot one arrow. ;o)

            Likewise, the practice of these arts stretched over centuries, so
            Showa-period kamibashi is going to be quite different from Kamakura
            kamibashi. But hopefully they're helpful for giving you interesting
            threads to investigate as you pursue not just the performance aspects
            of your art, but the academic aspects as well. :o)

            Good luck!

            Take care,
            -Deanna della Penna
          • Ellen Badgley
            Thanks for all the info-- this is very interesting! I confess that I don t immediately think of Japan as a bardic society, possibly because when I think
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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              Thanks for all the info-- this is very interesting!

              I confess that I don't immediately think of Japan as a "bardic" society,
              possibly because when I think about Japanese music, poetry, storytelling,
              etc. the individual arts and styles come to mind. I tend to think of "bard"
              as a catch-all term, when in period Japan you would have had different
              groups of people responsible for different aspects of the performing arts.
              With that in mind, there are plenty of performance opportunities/ genres
              associated with period Japan. Deanna-hime has listed quite a few, but I'll
              add some other terms off the top of my head (in some cases, I don't know
              the term for the performer, just for the art). There's a lot I've left out.

              -Going back a few hundred years to early Japan (Asuka period and before),
              we have documentation of a large number of "corporations" (-tomo) or
              "guilds" (-be) who existed for certain professions (warriors, potters,
              diviners, etc.). (Some of these groups corresponded to immigrant groups
              from Korea, etc. who brought continental techniques and practices with them,
              and were formally organized into guilds.) Many of these correspond to the
              bardic arts.
              - Katari-be: the guild of reciters, individuals who were responsible for the
              oral transmission of stories. "Not unlike western bards, these kataribe
              were active from preliterate into literate times. They memorized and recited
              songs, legendary feats, genealogies, and local myths and played important
              roles in the ritual observances and other important occasions associated
              with the Yamato court and other regions." (
              http://ias.berkeley.edu/orias/hero/yamato/characters_yamato.html)
              - Various other guilds existed, but I can't remember. If you are interested
              in this time period, reading the Kojiki (Phillippi translation) or the
              Nihongi (Aston translation) is recommended.

              Kagura - sacred Shinto music and accompanying dance, supposedly dating to
              very early times. This is the sort of thing that would have been performed
              at shrines, etc.

              Gagaku (formal Court music originally derived from T'ang China)
              - Kangen - instrumental music
              - Bugaku - music to accompany dance
              - Roei - "stylish" music of the Heian period, representing
              Japanese-translated Chinese poems set to music (gagaku melodies)
              - Saibara - old "folk songs" accompanied by gagaku melodies (this was
              considered passe' by the end of the Heian period, and there are only six
              saibara remaining in the repertoire)
              I'm not recalling if there are any particular names for the musicians and
              dancers. I'm sure there are.

              Imayo: "pop music" in the late Heian and Kamakura periods, less formal than
              gagaku (mostly recorded by Emperor Go-Shirakawa (late Heian) in the Ryojin
              hisho, "Songs to Shake the Rafters") - I have no knowledge of what the music
              was supposed to sound like, but there are a ton of these on a huge range of
              subjects, from Buddhism to Shinto to kid's songs to raunchy poetry. Very,
              very entertaining! Check my earlier post for a link to an online text about
              these.
              - Asobi - women performers of imayo who lived mostly in the provinces and
              were somewhat equivalent to the "geisha" of their day (skilled
              singers/entertainers who occasionally moonlighted as prostitutes).
              - There was another group of people who performed imayo - I can't remember
              the term, but they were described as a traveling people who roamed from
              place to place making a living.

              Shirabyoshi ("white rhythm"): The successors to asobi, etc., these were
              women who sang AND danced and became popular in late Heian/early Kamakura.
              They typically dressed up in male clothing to perform.

              Keep in mind that as far as storytelling is concerned, a large part of
              Buddhist preaching, etc. would have consisted of stories from the various
              sutras, about the life of the historical Buddha Sakyamuni, the various
              disciples and bodhisattvas, morality tales, etc. It would be totally
              acceptable for a Buddhist monk to also be a storyteller, if you are
              interested in that type of persona.

              - Abe Akirakeiko




              On 6/6/07, deanna.baran <deannabaran@...> wrote:
              >
              > Congratulations on your accomplishment. :o) I was quite impressed by
              > the calibre of performances in the Steppes competition! :o)
              >
              > Without a good dictionary at hand, I think "omoidasu" is related to
              > recollection and memory. I don't know if it's used in the sense of an
              > occupation, but it seems more verblike. I'm sure I'll be corrected if
              > I'm wrong. :o)
              >
              > Japanese history has such a colorful variety of extremely specialized
              > storytellers. :o)
              >
              > Koshaku has its roots in the transmitting historical stories to Heian
              > nobility, but eventually evolved to include literature as well,
              > evolved to become less formal, and the koshakushi's audiences
              > eventually included the commoners.
              >
              > Shigin is the chanting of Chinese poetry. Sometimes it's done solo,
              > and sometimes in a group. It has its roots in kanshi--- it's my
              > understanding that in Heian times, if you referred to shi/poetry, you
              > referred to kanshi (Chinese-language poetry written by Japanese).
              >
              > Kamishibai has either late Heian/early Kamakura roots in Buddhist
              > temples. The gaito kamishibaiya would tell morality stories
              > illustrated by emaki/emakimono/illustrated scrolls.
              >
              > Biwa (Japanese lutes) reached Japan from China during the Nara period,
              > and biwa hoshi ("lute priests) would accompany themselves while
              > performing recitations. One popular piece is the Heike Monogatari. If
              > you've seen Kwaidan, Hoichi the Earless is a biwa hoshi in action. :o)
              > I think this may be post-period, though, but given the antiquity of
              > the biwa, I'm curious as to what it may have evolved from.
              >
              > Those are probably not very helpful for developing persona, per se, or
              > even for entertaining people casually. :o) Much Japanese singing and
              > storytelling grates on unaccustomed Western ears. Pacing and
              > presentation are very different as well. :o) It's sort of like
              > watching kyudo (Japanese archery)... it's interesting if you know what
              > to expect, but if someone doesn't know the culture and the context and
              > what to look for, they get bored because it takes five minutes to
              > shoot one arrow. ;o)
              >
              > Likewise, the practice of these arts stretched over centuries, so
              > Showa-period kamibashi is going to be quite different from Kamakura
              > kamibashi. But hopefully they're helpful for giving you interesting
              > threads to investigate as you pursue not just the performance aspects
              > of your art, but the academic aspects as well. :o)
              >
              > Good luck!
              >
              > Take care,
              > -Deanna della Penna
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • jake curda
              what do we think of Omidassu no Hanashite........and yes...Omidassu was given to me becouse they were recounnters of history and lineage........I have put
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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                what do we think of Omidassu no Hanashite........and yes...Omidassu was given to me becouse they were recounnters of history and lineage........I have put Omidassu no Hannashite together to draw the picture of a story teller of history and lineage......as my bardic performances seem to focus on the oral tale and poetry of our past and legends.......so sumitted for your thoughs on the list......Omidassu no Hannashite

                Yagyu Masamori Nobunagga, servant of the Steppps

                David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                Checking my sources here's what I've found

                storyteller = hanashite
                poet = shijin
                musician = ongakuka
                singer, vocalist = kashu

                Hope this helps,
                Moritake Ishikawa
                (formerly of Elfsea/Lindenwood, AKA Ld Duncan MacCrimmon)

                jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote: Greetings again,

                ok, so this has ben bugging me for a little while.......what would the Japanese name be for a bard.....at one time I was told that it was Omidassu, but i can not call that sourse 100% reliable........I am a bard myself, have ben since before I felt the call to take up a Japanese persona, and the fire of that is still here.....but I want to know what a Japanese bard was......or the closest thing to it..........help please....again......

                Always in service,
                Yagyu Masamori Nobunagga, Tittle bard to the Baroney of the Stepps in the kingdom of Ansteorra......

                ---------------------------------
                TV dinner still cooling?
                Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood. Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!

                test'; " type=text/css>

                ---------------------------------
                We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

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                ---------------------------------
                We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JL Badgley
                I hate to say this, but that doesn t sound like a name. That sounds like saying Hi, my name is I tell stories about remembering . I may have missed it...
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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                  I hate to say this, but that doesn't sound like a name. That sounds like
                  saying "Hi, my name is 'I tell stories about remembering'".

                  I may have missed it... why not Yagyu Nobunaga? That is a perfectly good
                  name. As an artist you can use 'Shincho' as the reading and get Yagyu
                  Shincho (Sinifying the name makes sound more elite).

                  If you want a whole new name, I'd recommend Kataribe .... it fits the
                  general pattern of a name, and you can make a case that it is legitimate,
                  although I don't know if it survived into or past the Heian period.

                  You could also take a period title, like:

                  Yagyu Utaryo-no-X Nobunaga

                  In this case, X can be:
                  -kami (Jr. 5th Rank)
                  -suke (Sr. 6th Rank)
                  -daiin (Sr. 7th Rank)
                  -shoin (Jr. 7th Rank)
                  -taikyoku/-shokyoku (upper and lower Jr. 8th rank)

                  Or there's 'On-no-hakase', which is 'Doctor of Music'.

                  You could go one step further and figure out who the hereditary families of
                  the Uta Ryo were.

                  -Ii


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David
                  I attempted to reply to this earlier but it looks like it bounced or something... I found Taikomochi or Houkan. Basically a male geisha. Storyteller, joke
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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                    I attempted to reply to this earlier but it looks like it bounced or
                    something...

                    I found Taikomochi or Houkan.
                    Basically a male geisha.
                    Storyteller, joke teller, musician, all around entertainer.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taikomochi
                    There is currently a gentleman in Japan who is trying to revive this
                    traditional profession and I imagine he'd be happy to talk about it.
                    If I were brave enough to attempt to contact him...
                    http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/taikomochi.html

                    Good luck and I look forward to sharing some stories around the
                    campfire with you.
                    Okabe

                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings again,
                    >
                    > ok, so this has ben bugging me for a little while.......what would
                    the Japanese name be for a bard.....at one time I was told that it was
                    Omidassu, but i can not call that sourse 100% reliable........I am a
                    bard myself, have ben since before I felt the call to take up a
                    Japanese persona, and the fire of that is still here.....but I want to
                    know what a Japanese bard was......or the closest thing to
                    it..........help please....again......
                    >
                    > Always in service,
                    > Yagyu Masamori Nobunagga, Tittle bard to the Baroney of the Stepps
                    in the kingdom of Ansteorra......
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > TV dinner still cooling?
                    > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Has your keyboard developed a stutter? The double s should be a single s. Dasu, means to put out, send out, &c. and
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      > what do we think of Omidassu no Hanashite........and yes...Omidassu
                      > was given to me becouse they were recounnters of history and
                      > lineage........I have put Omidassu no Hannashite together to draw
                      > the picture of a story teller of history and lineage......as my
                      > bardic performances seem to focus on the oral tale and poetry of
                      > our past and legends.......so sumitted for your thoughs on the
                      > list......Omidassu no Hannashite

                      Has your keyboard developed a stutter? The double s should be a
                      single s. Dasu, means to put out, send out, &c. and is
                      a transitive verb related to the intransitive verb deru. Also, aren't
                      you really thinking of "omoidasu" which basically means to recall.

                      Why are you looking for a word for this? It's much more messy than
                      people so far have implied. There were of course hobbyists. And there
                      of course pros in several of these art forms.

                      If you are looking to be a traveling storyteller, then those guys
                      that pack a biwa are the sort of folks you are looking for.

                      As people have already pointed out, there are a LOT of more or less
                      performance/poetry/story-telling/&c. specialties in Japan. For that
                      matter, there are several specialties just within the Noh theatre.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ellen Badgley
                      I concur with Ii-dono. The phrase omoidasu no hanashite definitely doesn t sounds like a name, but above and beyond that, it just doesn t sound like a
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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                        I concur with Ii-dono. The phrase "omoidasu no hanashite" definitely
                        doesn't sounds like a name, but above and beyond that, it just doesn't sound
                        like a historical title. (If you've got documentation of its historical
                        use, I'd be very interested in seeing it!) If you just want a literal
                        translation of "rememberer of stories" that's fine-- it works as a basic,
                        literal SCA job title. If you want something a bit more, though, there is
                        room for picking a name/title that itself has a real, historical story
                        behind it (which to me is always more fun, and impressive, especially when
                        it comes to telling your own persona story).

                        The more I look up "Kataribe" the closer it sounds to the type of thing you
                        are describing. The term "kataribe" itself is basically a job title meaning
                        "reciter" (specifically in the sense of historical records, myths, legends,
                        etc.) but as with many other professions in Japan, the job was hereditary
                        within certain clans or families. The most famous kataribe was Hieda no
                        Are, who lived early on (I don't know what time period you would like to
                        concentrate on). If you were interested in picking an appropriate Japanese
                        name to correspond to the profession, you could be a Hieda-- I don't have
                        the sources in front of me, but it certainly sounds like the kind of name
                        you could find even in late period! (Heck, as a Hieda you could claim
                        descent from Ame-no-uzume-no-mikoto, one of the more interesting goddesses
                        in the Japanese "pantheon"!) Otherwise you could keep your current (very
                        nice) name and take on the job title of "Kataribe" instead of "omoidasu no
                        hanashite".

                        I will see if I can find some documentation for kataribe in later period.
                        In the meantime, here is some information on Hieda no Are (
                        http://ias.berkeley.edu/orias/hero/yamato/characters_yamato.html):

                        *Hieda no Are:* (Late 7th and early 8th century) Hieda no Are is famous for
                        reciting from memory the *teiki *(imperial records, genealogies of the
                        rulers) and other records and legends of antiquity to O no Yasumaro, the
                        compiler of *Kojiki*. In the preface to this work, Yasumaro states that
                        Hieda no Are was a *toneri*, or attendant, in the service of Emperor Temmu
                        and that he "could repeat orally whatever met his eye, and whatever struck
                        his ears was indelibly impressed in his heart (Philippi, p. 41-42)."
                        Scholars disagree as to whether Hieda no Are was a man or a woman and as to
                        whether Hieda no Are recited everything from memory or, as is more likely,
                        also had recourse to written documents. Hieda no Are is said to belong to
                        the Sarume-no-kimi clan; this clan, descended from the goddess
                        Ame-no-uzume-no-mikoto, who was among those who lured Amaterasu out of the
                        cave, was known for its hereditary female shamans who performed songs,
                        dances, and other rites. On the other hand, the office of *toneri* suggests
                        a man. Regardless, Hieda no Are's prominent role in the compilation of *
                        Kojiki* illustrates that during this period memory and oral recitation were
                        considered authoritative sources, less likely than written records to be
                        marred by errors and falsehoods. Some sources claim that Hieda no Are was
                        blind, as were many reciters (see kataribe) both in this early period and
                        continuing on through the medieval period.

                        - Abe Akirakeiko

                        On 6/6/07, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I hate to say this, but that doesn't sound like a name. That sounds like
                        > saying "Hi, my name is 'I tell stories about remembering'".
                        >
                        > I may have missed it... why not Yagyu Nobunaga? That is a perfectly good
                        > name. As an artist you can use 'Shincho' as the reading and get Yagyu
                        > Shincho (Sinifying the name makes sound more elite).
                        >
                        > If you want a whole new name, I'd recommend Kataribe .... it fits the
                        > general pattern of a name, and you can make a case that it is legitimate,
                        > although I don't know if it survived into or past the Heian period.
                        >
                        > You could also take a period title, like:
                        >
                        > Yagyu Utaryo-no-X Nobunaga
                        >
                        > In this case, X can be:
                        > -kami (Jr. 5th Rank)
                        > -suke (Sr. 6th Rank)
                        > -daiin (Sr. 7th Rank)
                        > -shoin (Jr. 7th Rank)
                        > -taikyoku/-shokyoku (upper and lower Jr. 8th rank)
                        >
                        > Or there's 'On-no-hakase', which is 'Doctor of Music'.
                        >
                        > You could go one step further and figure out who the hereditary families
                        > of
                        > the Uta Ryo were.
                        >
                        > -Ii
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ellen Badgley
                        Yagyu-dono, Okay, re-checking past messages, here s an idea for a job title for you: 草原の語部 Kusahara (or Kusahara-shu) no Kataribe Reciter of History
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 6, 2007
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                          Yagyu-dono,

                          Okay, re-checking past messages, here's an idea for a job title for you:


                          Kusahara (or Kusahara-shu) no Kataribe
                          Reciter of History and Legend of the (Barony of the) Grass-covered Plains

                          Kusahara or "grass plain" is the closest I could find to "steppe".
                          Kusahara-shu would be the "state/land of the grass-covered plains". (Our
                          own Barony of Stierbach in Atlantia we translate as "Ushikawa-shu" -- Barony
                          of Ox River-- in a similar way.)

                          Together with your chosen name it would be something like "Kusahara-shu no
                          Kataribe, Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga". (You could then append your court rank,
                          etc. to make it even more of an impressive Japanese mouthful.)

                          - Abe Akirakeiko



                          On 6/7/07, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I concur with Ii-dono. The phrase "omoidasu no hanashite" definitely
                          > doesn't sounds like a name, but above and beyond that, it just doesn't sound
                          > like a historical title. (If you've got documentation of its historical
                          > use, I'd be very interested in seeing it!) If you just want a literal
                          > translation of "rememberer of stories" that's fine-- it works as a basic,
                          > literal SCA job title. If you want something a bit more, though, there is
                          > room for picking a name/title that itself has a real, historical story
                          > behind it (which to me is always more fun, and impressive, especially when
                          > it comes to telling your own persona story).
                          >
                          > The more I look up "Kataribe" the closer it sounds to the type of thing
                          > you are describing. The term "kataribe" itself is basically a job title
                          > meaning "reciter" (specifically in the sense of historical records, myths,
                          > legends, etc.) but as with many other professions in Japan, the job was
                          > hereditary within certain clans or families. The most famous kataribe was
                          > Hieda no Are, who lived early on (I don't know what time period you would
                          > like to concentrate on). If you were interested in picking an appropriate
                          > Japanese name to correspond to the profession, you could be a Hieda-- I
                          > don't have the sources in front of me, but it certainly sounds like the kind
                          > of name you could find even in late period! (Heck, as a Hieda you could
                          > claim descent from Ame-no-uzume-no-mikoto, one of the more interesting
                          > goddesses in the Japanese "pantheon"!) Otherwise you could keep your
                          > current (very nice) name and take on the job title of "Kataribe" instead of
                          > "omoidasu no hanashite".
                          >
                          > I will see if I can find some documentation for kataribe in later period.
                          > In the meantime, here is some information on Hieda no Are (http://ias.berkeley.edu/orias/hero/yamato/characters_yamato.html
                          > ):
                          >
                          > *Hieda no Are:* (Late 7th and early 8th century) Hieda no Are is famous
                          > for reciting from memory the *teiki *(imperial records, genealogies of the
                          > rulers) and other records and legends of antiquity to O no Yasumaro, the
                          > compiler of *Kojiki*. In the preface to this work, Yasumaro states that
                          > Hieda no Are was a *toneri*, or attendant, in the service of Emperor Temmu
                          > and that he "could repeat orally whatever met his eye, and whatever struck
                          > his ears was indelibly impressed in his heart (Philippi, p. 41-42)."
                          > Scholars disagree as to whether Hieda no Are was a man or a woman and as to
                          > whether Hieda no Are recited everything from memory or, as is more likely,
                          > also had recourse to written documents. Hieda no Are is said to belong to
                          > the Sarume-no-kimi clan; this clan, descended from the goddess
                          > Ame-no-uzume-no-mikoto, who was among those who lured Amaterasu out of the
                          > cave, was known for its hereditary female shamans who performed songs,
                          > dances, and other rites. On the other hand, the office of *toneri*suggests a man. Regardless, Hieda no Are's prominent role in the compilation
                          > of *Kojiki* illustrates that during this period memory and oral recitation
                          > were considered authoritative sources, less likely than written records to
                          > be marred by errors and falsehoods. Some sources claim that Hieda no Are was
                          > blind, as were many reciters (see kataribe) both in this early period and
                          > continuing on through the medieval period.
                          >
                          > - Abe Akirakeiko
                          >
                          > On 6/6/07, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I hate to say this, but that doesn't sound like a name. That sounds
                          > > like
                          > > saying "Hi, my name is 'I tell stories about remembering'".
                          > >
                          > > I may have missed it... why not Yagyu Nobunaga? That is a perfectly good
                          > > name. As an artist you can use 'Shincho' as the reading and get Yagyu
                          > > Shincho (Sinifying the name makes sound more elite).
                          > >
                          > > If you want a whole new name, I'd recommend Kataribe .... it fits the
                          > > general pattern of a name, and you can make a case that it is
                          > > legitimate,
                          > > although I don't know if it survived into or past the Heian period.
                          > >
                          > > You could also take a period title, like:
                          > >
                          > > Yagyu Utaryo-no-X Nobunaga
                          > >
                          > > In this case, X can be:
                          > > -kami (Jr. 5th Rank)
                          > > -suke (Sr. 6th Rank)
                          > > -daiin (Sr. 7th Rank)
                          > > -shoin (Jr. 7th Rank)
                          > > -taikyoku/-shokyoku (upper and lower Jr. 8th rank)
                          > >
                          > > Or there's 'On-no-hakase', which is 'Doctor of Music'.
                          > >
                          > > You could go one step further and figure out who the hereditary families
                          > > of
                          > > the Uta Ryo were.
                          > >
                          > > -Ii
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I doubt that this really works. If for no other reason that be did not belong to baronies or such like. ...
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 7, 2007
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig!

                            > Okay, re-checking past messages, here's an idea for a job title for
                            > you:
                            >
                            >
                            > Kusahara (or Kusahara-shu) no Kataribe
                            > Reciter of History and Legend of the (Barony of the) Grass-covered
                            > Plains

                            I doubt that this really works. If for no other reason that be did
                            not belong
                            to baronies or such like.

                            > Kusahara or "grass plain" is the closest I could find to "steppe".

                            Unfortunately, I haven't seen a lot of steppes in Japan.

                            > Kusahara-shu would be the "state/land of the grass-covered
                            > plains". (Our
                            > own Barony of Stierbach in Atlantia we translate as "Ushikawa-shu"
                            > -- Barony
                            > of Ox River-- in a similar way.)

                            No. No. No. Shu isn't really used this way. About the only places
                            that end in
                            shu are in the United States. There is some justification for using -
                            kuni or
                            -koku, but not -shu. If you are looking for modern Japanese concepts, a
                            barony is more like say a -gun which is a rural district. Or maybe
                            they can
                            be equated with the ancient provinces, but as I recall these are called
                            kuni as in "kuni no miyatsuko". There is an additional problem with
                            Ushikawa in that it is the name of a river. This tends to need an
                            additional
                            toponymic element for the place where people live and have their fields.
                            There are some hybrid finals such as -tsu in Otsu.

                            > Together with your chosen name it would be something like "Kusahara-
                            > shu no
                            > Kataribe, Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga". (You could then append your
                            > court rank,
                            > etc. to make it even more of an impressive Japanese mouthful.)

                            Incidentally, I applaud the use of -be names just as much as I
                            applaud the use
                            of uji names. However, the concept is not quite correct here. The -be
                            are
                            ancient monopoly corporations many of which were created by the emperor.
                            Further, a minority of members of a -be might be actually engaged in the
                            trade associated with the -be. To make things worse, there were -be
                            which
                            were established simply to endow something or other. Further, -be
                            names like
                            the uji names are slotted somewhat differently. Finally, attaching
                            what you are
                            hoping to be an occupational byname to a baronial name is just
                            plain presumptive.

                            As already mentioned. You should not be stacking nanori which is
                            precisely
                            what Masamori Nobunaga is doing.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jake curda
                            ok...to clarify a bit........I am looking for somethign to be used like a tittle, and not a name.........I like the name Yagyu and want to keep
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 7, 2007
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                              ok...to clarify a bit........I am looking for somethign to be used like a tittle, and not a name.........I like the name Yagyu and want to keep it..........also directing to Solveig.......sorry, when the word Dasu was introduced to me it was introduced as dassu, so thank you for the correction, it is duely noated and filed away.....and second.....when working with the Hearalds of my kingdom, one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-woods" familes were stacking nanori....and being that durring this period the Yagyu were just about that, we thought it would add to the persona.......the name as I was last informed a few days ago was good and about to be approved.....we have been working on it for some time.........

                              Thank you all for your wisdom and input......i think we may just be able to come up with something that I can use yet.......

                              Yagyu Masamori Nobunagga, Tittel bard of the Barony of the Stepps in the kingdom of Ansteorra.

                              Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig!

                              > Okay, re-checking past messages, here's an idea for a job title for
                              > you:
                              >
                              >
                              > Kusahara (or Kusahara-shu) no Kataribe
                              > Reciter of History and Legend of the (Barony of the) Grass-covered
                              > Plains

                              I doubt that this really works. If for no other reason that be did
                              not belong
                              to baronies or such like.

                              > Kusahara or "grass plain" is the closest I could find to "steppe".

                              Unfortunately, I haven't seen a lot of steppes in Japan.

                              > Kusahara-shu would be the "state/land of the grass-covered
                              > plains". (Our
                              > own Barony of Stierbach in Atlantia we translate as "Ushikawa-shu"
                              > -- Barony
                              > of Ox River-- in a similar way.)

                              No. No. No. Shu isn't really used this way. About the only places
                              that end in
                              shu are in the United States. There is some justification for using -
                              kuni or
                              -koku, but not -shu. If you are looking for modern Japanese concepts, a
                              barony is more like say a -gun which is a rural district. Or maybe
                              they can
                              be equated with the ancient provinces, but as I recall these are called
                              kuni as in "kuni no miyatsuko". There is an additional problem with
                              Ushikawa in that it is the name of a river. This tends to need an
                              additional
                              toponymic element for the place where people live and have their fields.
                              There are some hybrid finals such as -tsu in Otsu.

                              > Together with your chosen name it would be something like "Kusahara-
                              > shu no
                              > Kataribe, Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga". (You could then append your
                              > court rank,
                              > etc. to make it even more of an impressive Japanese mouthful.)

                              Incidentally, I applaud the use of -be names just as much as I
                              applaud the use
                              of uji names. However, the concept is not quite correct here. The -be
                              are
                              ancient monopoly corporations many of which were created by the emperor.
                              Further, a minority of members of a -be might be actually engaged in the
                              trade associated with the -be. To make things worse, there were -be
                              which
                              were established simply to endow something or other. Further, -be
                              names like
                              the uji names are slotted somewhat differently. Finally, attaching
                              what you are
                              hoping to be an occupational byname to a baronial name is just
                              plain presumptive.

                              As already mentioned. You should not be stacking nanori which is
                              precisely
                              what Masamori Nobunaga is doing.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                              ---------------------------------
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                              with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • chasrmartin
                              Taikomochi sounds like the guy who beats on the rice with a sledge during New Years. (Which is my favorite part of preparing for New Years.) Just for fun,
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 7, 2007
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                                "Taikomochi" sounds like the guy who beats on the rice with a sledge
                                during New Years.

                                (Which is my favorite part of preparing for New Years.)

                                Just for fun, here's wikipedia on biwa (which is effectively the same
                                as a p'i p'a, but not the same as p'i p'a duck, which tastes much
                                better but is hard to tune.)

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biwa

                                Does anyone know what the Japanese name for an erhu is?
                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 7, 2007
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                  > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                  > woods" familes were stacking nanori....

                                  Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                  nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                  common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                  something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                  to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                                  Since you mentioned that your name was about to be approved, I am
                                  curious as to when the paperwork went in as it does not appear on any
                                  kingdom Letter of Intent since November. Further, names and armory
                                  that far back have already been acted upon by Laurel. This means that
                                  your proposed name is not on the verge of approval. I also checked
                                  all of the Letters of Acceptance and Return going back to January of
                                  2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                  and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                  their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                  has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                  spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                  However, I sort of doubt that.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yay! The Wikipedia article you found is pretty much accurate. You really do have to check Wikipedia articles.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jun 7, 2007
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                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                    > I found Taikomochi or Houkan. Basically a male geisha.

                                    Yay! The Wikipedia article you found is pretty much accurate.
                                    You really do have to check Wikipedia articles. Basically,
                                    Daijirin agrees with you and even gives "dangeisha" (male geisha)
                                    as a synonym. Basically, you win.

                                    > Storyteller, joke teller, musician, all around entertainer.

                                    The description in Daijirin goes on to say that they were entertainers
                                    at drinking parties. You should understand that these tended to be
                                    free-lance professionals. However, I suppose that they can be
                                    retained. Certainly, Kurosawa appeared to think so when he made
                                    Ran.

                                    Finally, "Houkan" sounds much more official than "Taikomochi".

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • jrwences
                                    ... Probably the closest analogous Japanese instrument (as opposed to a Japanese word for the Chinese instrument) is the kokyu. It resembles a small shamisen
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jun 7, 2007
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                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "chasrmartin" <chasrmartin@...> wrote:

                                      > Does anyone know what the Japanese name for an erhu is?
                                      >
                                      Probably the closest analogous Japanese instrument (as opposed to a
                                      Japanese word for the Chinese instrument) is the kokyu. It resembles a
                                      small shamisen played with a bow.

                                      See the image at:
                                      http://ericgolub.com/photo/kokyo.htm

                                      Wikipedia suggests that the Japanese name for the erhu is "niko."
                                    • JL Badgley
                                      ... I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a double nanori or if
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                        On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                        > Noble Cousin!
                                        >
                                        > Greetings from Solveig!
                                        >
                                        > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                        > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                        > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                        >
                                        > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                        > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                        > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                        > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                        > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                                        I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                        period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                        double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                        name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                        the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

                                        > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                        > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                        > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                        > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                        > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                        > However, I sort of doubt that.

                                        I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                        at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                        are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                        to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                        Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                        hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                        hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

                                        Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                        the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                        you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                        other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                        feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                        'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                        in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                        Japanese traditional culture, of course.

                                        -Ii
                                      • jake curda
                                        just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                          just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess that
                                          heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

                                          thank you all,
                                          Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

                                          JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                                          On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                          > Noble Cousin!
                                          >
                                          > Greetings from Solveig!
                                          >
                                          > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                          > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                          > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                          >
                                          > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                          > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                          > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                          > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                          > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                                          I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                          period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                          double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                          name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                          the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

                                          > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                          > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                          > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                          > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                          > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                          > However, I sort of doubt that.

                                          I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                          at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                          are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                          to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                          Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                          hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                          hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

                                          Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                          the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                          you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                          other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                          feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                          'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                          in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                          Japanese traditional culture, of course.

                                          -Ii





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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • jake curda
                                          after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                            after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the Stepps?????.......

                                            Yagyu.....

                                            jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
                                            just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess
                                            that
                                            heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

                                            thank you all,
                                            Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

                                            JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                                            On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                            > Noble Cousin!
                                            >
                                            > Greetings from Solveig!
                                            >
                                            > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                            > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                            > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                            >
                                            > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                            > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                            > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                            > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                            > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                                            I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                            period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                            double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                            name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                            the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

                                            > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                            > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                            > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                            > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                            > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                            > However, I sort of doubt that.

                                            I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                            at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                            are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                            to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                            Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                            hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                            hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

                                            Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                            the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                            you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                            other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                            feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                            'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                            in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                            Japanese traditional culture, of course.

                                            -Ii

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                                          • JL Badgley
                                            It would be Houkan of the Steppes , in my opinion, or The Houkan Bard of the Steppes . I would even recommend The Kusahara Bard (kusahara means grassy
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                              It would be 'Houkan of the Steppes', in my opinion, or 'The Houkan Bard of
                                              the Steppes'. I would even recommend 'The Kusahara Bard' (kusahara means
                                              'grassy plain'--and today means steppe. It sounds perfectly reasonable to
                                              me, I'm not sure what Solveig-dono's problem with it is).

                                              If you want to have the 'no' I would suggest a full title, and then it would
                                              be something like Kusahara no Houkan--think of 'no' as an "'s"--Kusahara's
                                              Bard.

                                              Still, it may be better to have most of the title in English.

                                              -Ii

                                              On 6/8/07, jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best
                                              > describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it
                                              > would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese
                                              > equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no
                                              > Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the
                                              > Stepps?????.......
                                              >
                                              > Yagyu.....
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > jake curda <jakecurda@... <jakecurda%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                                              > just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my
                                              > kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when
                                              > last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but
                                              > something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to
                                              > the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an
                                              > earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The
                                              > Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from
                                              > pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of
                                              > great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am
                                              > looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the
                                              > name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes
                                              > mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one
                                              > "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but
                                              > once again, I confess
                                              > that
                                              > heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the
                                              > process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is
                                              > spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I
                                              > think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......
                                              >
                                              > thank you all,
                                              > Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the
                                              > Kingdom of Ansteorra
                                              >
                                              > JL Badgley <tatsushu@... <tatsushu%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                                              > On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@... <nostrand%40acm.org>>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > > Noble Cousin!
                                              > >
                                              > > Greetings from Solveig!
                                              > >
                                              > > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                              > > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                              > > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                              > >
                                              > > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                              > > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                              > > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                              > > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                              > > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.
                                              >
                                              > I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                              > period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                              > double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                              > name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                              > the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).
                                              >
                                              > > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                              > > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                              > > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                              > > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                              > > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                              > > However, I sort of doubt that.
                                              >
                                              > I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                              > at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                              > are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                              > to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                              > Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                              > hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                              > hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).
                                              >
                                              > Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                              > the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                              > you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                              > other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                              > feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                              > 'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                              > in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                              > Japanese traditional culture, of course.
                                              >
                                              > -Ii
                                              >
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                                            • David Nesmith
                                              ...Steppes no Houkan would be the correct order Moritake jake curda wrote: after carefull reading i
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                                ...Steppes no Houkan would be the correct order

                                                Moritake

                                                jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote: after carefull reading i belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of the Stepps?????.......

                                                Yagyu.....

                                                jake curda <jakecurda@...> wrote:
                                                just that.......and i confess that the issue of the name was left up to my kingdom heralds.....I am not aware of all the details involving it.....when last spoken to they simply said that it was all in order.........but something I would wish to adresst o Solveig-dono and that was the mention to the use of a baroneal tittle as being pretentious.........it is infact an earned tittle sempai........and one that is justly used, I am in fact The Bard of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra.......so far from pretensious, it is a tittle held with pride, as I fall in a long line of great artisans and laureles to hold this tittle......this is why I am looking for a Japanese tittle...........finaly, the proof citation, for the name, was not given verbal but documented......now it could be that it comes mostly from post-1600.....but as it was explaned to me, that would be one "weirdness" that I am told is allowed in nameing within the SCA........but once again, I confess
                                                that
                                                heraldry is not one of my arts, and I know little about the art or the process.....I only go off what I ma told from my hearld.......and it is spelled with 1 g...lol......I just can't keep my fingers typing as fast as I think.....in short I SUCK at typing........that I will never deny......

                                                thank you all,
                                                Yagyu Masamori Nobunaga, Tittle Bard to the Barony of the Stepps in the Kingdom of Ansteorra

                                                JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                                                On 6/7/07, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                                > Noble Cousin!
                                                >
                                                > Greetings from Solveig!
                                                >
                                                > > one of wich being a japanese-american whoes parents were from
                                                > > Kyoto, we found evidence that in early Muromachi small and "back-
                                                > > woods" familes were stacking nanori....
                                                >
                                                > Do you have documentary evidence? Would you mind sharing it? Changing
                                                > nanori was fairly common. Actual stacking of nanori is at best less
                                                > common. You really do need to be able to document the practice with
                                                > something other than the verbal say-so of your friend. What you need
                                                > to do is to find a pre-1601 genealogy which shows the practice.

                                                I agree. I have *seen* the practice, but almost always in the Edo
                                                period (post-1600). Ofttimes it is difficult to say if a name is a
                                                double nanori or if it is a nanori stacked together with a religious
                                                name or something similar (in which case it probably wouldn't be read
                                                the same as a nanori, using the on'yomi instead).

                                                > 2006, and you do not appear there either. Finally, the Online Ordinal
                                                > and Armorial is current through June of 2006, and you do not appear
                                                > their either. So, either your paperwork has been lost, or your name
                                                > has not yet made it out of kingdom. One final possibility is that the
                                                > spelling of Yagyu was changed somewhere in the paperwork trail.
                                                > However, I sort of doubt that.

                                                I think, if this name is new, there's possibly one more thing to look
                                                at--it should be 'Nobunaga'. 'Nobunagga' is a misspelling unless you
                                                are doing that for some other reason (basically, Nobunagga would need
                                                to be 'No*bu*na*(tsu)*ga' and I feel confident in saying that's not a
                                                Japanese name--especially not a nanori. 'No*bu*na*ga' on the other
                                                hand, is. Those breaks show how it would have to be put together with
                                                hiragana or katakana, the basic structure of the Japanese langugae).

                                                Solveig-dono, I've been trying to think on the 'Bard of the Barony of
                                                the Steppes'. My thought is that Chinese sounds more 'official', as
                                                you mention, but we want to differentiate this 'Houkan' from any
                                                other--What about 'Sougen-Houkan' ('Grassy Plains Houkan')? It still
                                                feels more awkward than using a title, like Kusahara no X (where X is
                                                'Houkan', 'Taikomochi' or whatever other indicator they want to throw
                                                in). I get the feeling that we are shoehorning Western ideas into
                                                Japanese traditional culture, of course.

                                                -Ii

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                                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The problem with pretense is not that I disbelieved that you were a bard to your barony. I suspected that that was the
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                                  Noble Cousin!

                                                  Greetings from Solveig! The problem with pretense is not that I
                                                  disbelieved that you were a bard to your barony.
                                                  I suspected that that was the case. The problem is to avoid pretense
                                                  to an imperial title. Regardless, finding a
                                                  good way for you to say bard of your barony is separate from the name
                                                  question. I think that the version that
                                                  sounds sort of Chinese also sounds sort of official. So, you might
                                                  want to use that. The problem comes in more
                                                  along the lines of attaching it to the name of the Barony. I doubt
                                                  that this is necessary. You have a job, not a title.

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yes, we understand that. However, it is still not a title. It is still a job after a fashion. The same thing is true
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jun 8, 2007
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                                                    Noble Cousin!

                                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                                    > jake curda <jakecurda@...>
                                                    > wrote: after carefull reading i
                                                    > belieave that I will use houkan, as it best describes my
                                                    > profession.........as the tittle i will use though, I think it
                                                    > would be best to just leave it as the Stepps and not a japanese
                                                    > equivilent.....so would it run as Stepps no Houkan or Houkan no
                                                    > Stepps.......becouse I am no A bard of the Stepps, but THE bard of
                                                    > the Stepps?????.......

                                                    Yes, we understand that. However, it is still not a title. It is
                                                    still a job after a fashion. The same thing is true for whoever is
                                                    the current heavy list champion. Basically, at the end of your term,
                                                    the job goes poof.

                                                    Hokan is perfectly fine. However, if you want to emphasize your
                                                    leadership role, then you might want to consider -shi
                                                    (teacher) or --kan (minister) to the end of the thing. I would
                                                    recommend -shi over -kan as it roughly translates to
                                                    "master" in the sense of "dance master" &c. If you decide to stick -
                                                    shi on the end the S probably turns into a J due
                                                    to coarticulation of adjacent sounds.

                                                    Finally, you really do not need to stick the baronial name onto the
                                                    thing. However, if you decide to do so, the baronial name should
                                                    probably bear the suffix -kuni (country). This is the suffix commonly
                                                    found in the names of pre-modern Japanese
                                                    provinces. Provincial names were often shortened to the on'yomi of
                                                    the initial kanji and "koku" the on'yomi for kuni.

                                                    Your Humble Servant
                                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Amateur Scholar





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