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Re: Going Sanada

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  • chasrmartin
    By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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      By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
      (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
      day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

      - Mugyo
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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        Noble Cousins!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
        > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

        No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
        Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
        doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
        myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
        (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
        a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

        Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
        in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

        KA sounds like what a crow says
        KI sounds like key
        KU sounds like what a pigeon says
        KE sounds like the beginning of kept
        KO sounds like the beginning of core

        I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
        TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
        ooh.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
        ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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          On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
          > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
          > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
          > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
          > > but not necessarily).
          >
          > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
          > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
          > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

          No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
          that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
          kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
          up.

          Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
          Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
          O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

          How about:
          TO U JO U
          SO U MA
          A O NO
          U RA I SA I
          A SA I SHI
          I TO U TSU
          KA JI U U JI
          KO UCHI

          Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
          tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
          them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
          know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
          so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
          usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
          are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
          just about anything else.

          > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
          > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
          > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

          Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
          to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

          Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
          sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

          Syllable:
          1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
          sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
          any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
          consonants.
          2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
          approximate a spoken syllable.
          (from http://dictionary.com)

          So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
          has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
          takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

          Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
          they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
          RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
          pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
          that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
          you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
          the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
          O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
          diphthongs.

          -Ii
        • Michael Peters
          I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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            I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
            technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
            interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
            pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
            could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
            Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
            lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
            brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
            As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
            inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
            pronunciation would probably be the best.


            >Greetings from Solveig!
            >
            >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
            >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
            >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
            >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
            >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
            >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

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          • chasrmartin
            ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
              wrote:

              but
              > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
              > ooh.

              Tsoup.
            • chasrmartin
              Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                pronounce Japanese adequately.

                One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                and second "p".

                - Mugyo
              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                  On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                  > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                  > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                  > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                  Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                  that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                  to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                  was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                  Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                  -Ii
                • lawrence warnock
                  I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                    I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                    to far, I just delete the email ;p

                    Miguru

                    >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                    >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                    >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                    >
                    >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                    > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                    > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                    > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                    >
                    >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                    >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                    >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                    >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                    >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                    >
                    >-Ii

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                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                      > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                      > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                      > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                      > and second "p".

                      Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                      should
                      be tension and stopped air involved.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar





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