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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada

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  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
    ... Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable... but not
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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      On 3/6/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
      > > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.
      >
      > thank you :)
      >
      > >
      > > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
      > > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
      > >
      >
      > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
      > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
      > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
      > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

      Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
      two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
      but not necessarily).

      So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
      to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
      should sound. Other examples:

      'Nobu-naga' (And I can't see 'Nob-naga', so you don't always drop the 'u')
      'Ie-yasu'
      'Toyo-tomi'
      'Haru-aki'
      'Aki-tada'
      'Tada-yuki'
      etc.

      Even art or religious names often follow this rule, although it is
      harder to see:
      'Shin-gen' (SHI N GE N)
      'Ken-shin' (KE N SHI N)
      'Sei-mei' (SE I ME I)
      'Do-man' (DO U MA N)

      This isn't perfect, but if there are four characters it is usually two
      characters per kanji. Then you have names like 'Kobayakawa'
      (Ko-baya-kawa) that blow it all out of the water!

      > Thank you for the kind words :)
      > -Jason/Katsu

      No problem--thank you for sharing.


      -Ii Katsumori
    • chasrmartin
      ... Um, do you mean read kana ? Kanji often have multiple readings; for example the first character in my secular name can be either yuki or sachi , and
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
        <tatsushu@...> wrote:

        > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
        > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
        > but not necessarily).

        Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
        example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
        "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

        >
        > So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
        > to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
        > should sound.

        This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
        word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
        syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

        The two things that really can trip you up are that an -n not followed
        by a vowel *is a syllable*, and that japanese has short and long
        vowels --- which is to say, two vowels in a row both get a beat, even
        if they're the samje vowel. So my "ancestral" village, Shingu, in
        Wakayama Prefecture, is "shi-n-gu", Ieyasu is "I-e-ya-s(u)". The
        respectful form of 'desu', which is written 'deshoo' or 'deshou', has
        three syllables, so de-sho-o ka?

        Oh, one more thing to mention: any of the places you see a syllable
        with a consonant and a 'y' is generally a single syllable. My secular
        name is "Yukio", three syllables -- "Yukyo" would be two syllables.

        - Mugyo (two syllables)
      • chasrmartin
        By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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          By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
          (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
          day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

          - Mugyo
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
            > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

            No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
            Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
            doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
            myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
            (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
            a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

            Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
            in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

            KA sounds like what a crow says
            KI sounds like key
            KU sounds like what a pigeon says
            KE sounds like the beginning of kept
            KO sounds like the beginning of core

            I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
            TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
            ooh.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar





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          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
            ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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              On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
              > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
              > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
              > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
              > > but not necessarily).
              >
              > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
              > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
              > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

              No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
              that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
              kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
              up.

              Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
              Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
              O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

              How about:
              TO U JO U
              SO U MA
              A O NO
              U RA I SA I
              A SA I SHI
              I TO U TSU
              KA JI U U JI
              KO UCHI

              Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
              tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
              them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
              know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
              so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
              usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
              are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
              just about anything else.

              > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
              > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
              > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

              Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
              to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

              Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
              sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

              Syllable:
              1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
              sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
              any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
              consonants.
              2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
              approximate a spoken syllable.
              (from http://dictionary.com)

              So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
              has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
              takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

              Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
              they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
              RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
              pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
              that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
              you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
              the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
              O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
              diphthongs.

              -Ii
            • Michael Peters
              I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
                technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
                pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
                could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
                Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
                lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
                brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
                As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
                inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
                pronunciation would probably be the best.


                >Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

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              • chasrmartin
                ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                  wrote:

                  but
                  > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                  > ooh.

                  Tsoup.
                • chasrmartin
                  Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                    Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                    wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                    the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                    pronounce Japanese adequately.

                    One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                    Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                    single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                    pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                    and second "p".

                    - Mugyo
                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                    ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                      On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                      > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                      > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                      > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                      Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                      that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                      to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                      was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                      Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                      -Ii
                    • lawrence warnock
                      I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                        I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                        to far, I just delete the email ;p

                        Miguru

                        >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                        >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                        >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                        >
                        >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                        > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                        > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                        > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                        >
                        >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                        >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                        >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                        >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                        >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                        >
                        >-Ii

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                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!

                          > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                          > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                          > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                          > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                          > and second "p".

                          Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                          should
                          be tension and stopped air involved.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar





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