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Re: Going Sanada

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  • jrwences
    ... http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm ... The vowels u and i are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@> wrote:
      > >
      > > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
      > > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
      > > *love* sitting and listening to those samurai flicks and how they
      > > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.
      >
      > I think it's specific to the letter "u."
      > This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
      >
      http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm
      >
      > Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
      >
      The vowels "u" and "i" are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
      "yu" is a different vowel sound from "u" and does not get this treatment.
    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
      ... Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable... but not
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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        On 3/6/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
        > > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.
        >
        > thank you :)
        >
        > >
        > > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
        > > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
        > >
        >
        > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
        > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
        > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
        > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

        Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
        two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
        but not necessarily).

        So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
        to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
        should sound. Other examples:

        'Nobu-naga' (And I can't see 'Nob-naga', so you don't always drop the 'u')
        'Ie-yasu'
        'Toyo-tomi'
        'Haru-aki'
        'Aki-tada'
        'Tada-yuki'
        etc.

        Even art or religious names often follow this rule, although it is
        harder to see:
        'Shin-gen' (SHI N GE N)
        'Ken-shin' (KE N SHI N)
        'Sei-mei' (SE I ME I)
        'Do-man' (DO U MA N)

        This isn't perfect, but if there are four characters it is usually two
        characters per kanji. Then you have names like 'Kobayakawa'
        (Ko-baya-kawa) that blow it all out of the water!

        > Thank you for the kind words :)
        > -Jason/Katsu

        No problem--thank you for sharing.


        -Ii Katsumori
      • chasrmartin
        ... Um, do you mean read kana ? Kanji often have multiple readings; for example the first character in my secular name can be either yuki or sachi , and
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
          <tatsushu@...> wrote:

          > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
          > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
          > but not necessarily).

          Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
          example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
          "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

          >
          > So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
          > to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
          > should sound.

          This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
          word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
          syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

          The two things that really can trip you up are that an -n not followed
          by a vowel *is a syllable*, and that japanese has short and long
          vowels --- which is to say, two vowels in a row both get a beat, even
          if they're the samje vowel. So my "ancestral" village, Shingu, in
          Wakayama Prefecture, is "shi-n-gu", Ieyasu is "I-e-ya-s(u)". The
          respectful form of 'desu', which is written 'deshoo' or 'deshou', has
          three syllables, so de-sho-o ka?

          Oh, one more thing to mention: any of the places you see a syllable
          with a consonant and a 'y' is generally a single syllable. My secular
          name is "Yukio", three syllables -- "Yukyo" would be two syllables.

          - Mugyo (two syllables)
        • chasrmartin
          By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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            By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
            (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
            day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

            - Mugyo
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
              > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

              No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
              Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
              doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
              myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
              (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
              a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

              Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
              in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

              KA sounds like what a crow says
              KI sounds like key
              KU sounds like what a pigeon says
              KE sounds like the beginning of kept
              KO sounds like the beginning of core

              I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
              TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
              ooh.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar





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            • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
              ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                > > but not necessarily).
                >
                > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
                that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
                kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
                up.

                Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
                Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
                O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

                How about:
                TO U JO U
                SO U MA
                A O NO
                U RA I SA I
                A SA I SHI
                I TO U TSU
                KA JI U U JI
                KO UCHI

                Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
                tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
                them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
                know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
                so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
                usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
                are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
                just about anything else.

                > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
                to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

                Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
                sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

                Syllable:
                1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
                sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
                any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
                consonants.
                2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
                approximate a spoken syllable.
                (from http://dictionary.com)

                So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
                has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
                takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

                Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
                they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
                RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
                pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
                that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
                you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
                the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
                O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
                diphthongs.

                -Ii
              • Michael Peters
                I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                  I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
                  technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                  interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
                  pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
                  could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
                  Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
                  lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
                  brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
                  As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
                  inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
                  pronunciation would probably be the best.


                  >Greetings from Solveig!
                  >
                  >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                  >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                  >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                  >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                  >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                  >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

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                • chasrmartin
                  ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                    wrote:

                    but
                    > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                    > ooh.

                    Tsoup.
                  • chasrmartin
                    Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                      Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                      wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                      the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                      pronounce Japanese adequately.

                      One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                      Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                      single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                      pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                      and second "p".

                      - Mugyo
                    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                      ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                        On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                        > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                        > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                        > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                        Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                        that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                        to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                        was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                        Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                        -Ii
                      • lawrence warnock
                        I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                          I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                          to far, I just delete the email ;p

                          Miguru

                          >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                          >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                          >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                          >
                          >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                          > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                          > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                          > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                          >
                          >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                          >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                          >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                          >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                          >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                          >
                          >-Ii

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                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig!

                            > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                            > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                            > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                            > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                            > and second "p".

                            Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                            should
                            be tension and stopped air involved.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar





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