Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: pronunciation

Expand Messages
  • deanna.baran
    ... saying desoo rather than des . Remembering nan desu ka was pronounced nandeska really helped with that part. We had similar collective difficulty
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
      > really has me confused.

      ---When I took a Japanese class, we all had difficulty with those u's.
      :o) Mostly it was with "desu"-- it made the teacher smile when we kept
      saying "desoo" rather than "des". Remembering "nan desu ka" was
      pronounced "nandeska" really helped with that part.

      We had similar collective difficulty with remembering how to pronounce
      "tsu". It took a lot of practice to remember "ts"; we always felt like
      we were making those little interrupting noises. :o)

      I'm sure I'll be corrected if it's bad advice, but we were told, as
      beginners, to give the different syllables equal weight and equal
      length, unlike, say, Spanish, where the difference between papa and
      papá makes all the difference. :o) Not emphasizing and not lingering
      on any particular syllable was a good way to start, though not a good
      place to stop.

      Hope that helps!
      -Deanna
    • jrwences
      ... http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm ... The vowels u and i are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@> wrote:
        > >
        > > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
        > > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
        > > *love* sitting and listening to those samurai flicks and how they
        > > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.
        >
        > I think it's specific to the letter "u."
        > This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
        >
        http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm
        >
        > Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
        >
        The vowels "u" and "i" are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
        "yu" is a different vowel sound from "u" and does not get this treatment.
      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
        ... Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable... but not
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          On 3/6/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
          > > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.
          >
          > thank you :)
          >
          > >
          > > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
          > > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
          > >
          >
          > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
          > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
          > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
          > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

          Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
          two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
          but not necessarily).

          So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
          to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
          should sound. Other examples:

          'Nobu-naga' (And I can't see 'Nob-naga', so you don't always drop the 'u')
          'Ie-yasu'
          'Toyo-tomi'
          'Haru-aki'
          'Aki-tada'
          'Tada-yuki'
          etc.

          Even art or religious names often follow this rule, although it is
          harder to see:
          'Shin-gen' (SHI N GE N)
          'Ken-shin' (KE N SHI N)
          'Sei-mei' (SE I ME I)
          'Do-man' (DO U MA N)

          This isn't perfect, but if there are four characters it is usually two
          characters per kanji. Then you have names like 'Kobayakawa'
          (Ko-baya-kawa) that blow it all out of the water!

          > Thank you for the kind words :)
          > -Jason/Katsu

          No problem--thank you for sharing.


          -Ii Katsumori
        • chasrmartin
          ... Um, do you mean read kana ? Kanji often have multiple readings; for example the first character in my secular name can be either yuki or sachi , and
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
            <tatsushu@...> wrote:

            > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
            > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
            > but not necessarily).

            Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
            example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
            "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

            >
            > So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
            > to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
            > should sound.

            This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
            word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
            syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

            The two things that really can trip you up are that an -n not followed
            by a vowel *is a syllable*, and that japanese has short and long
            vowels --- which is to say, two vowels in a row both get a beat, even
            if they're the samje vowel. So my "ancestral" village, Shingu, in
            Wakayama Prefecture, is "shi-n-gu", Ieyasu is "I-e-ya-s(u)". The
            respectful form of 'desu', which is written 'deshoo' or 'deshou', has
            three syllables, so de-sho-o ka?

            Oh, one more thing to mention: any of the places you see a syllable
            with a consonant and a 'y' is generally a single syllable. My secular
            name is "Yukio", three syllables -- "Yukyo" would be two syllables.

            - Mugyo (two syllables)
          • chasrmartin
            By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
              (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
              day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

              - Mugyo
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Noble Cousins!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
                > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

                No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

                Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
                in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

                KA sounds like what a crow says
                KI sounds like key
                KU sounds like what a pigeon says
                KE sounds like the beginning of kept
                KO sounds like the beginning of core

                I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
                TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                ooh.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                  > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                  > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                  > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                  > > but not necessarily).
                  >
                  > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                  > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                  > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                  No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
                  that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
                  kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
                  up.

                  Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
                  Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
                  O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

                  How about:
                  TO U JO U
                  SO U MA
                  A O NO
                  U RA I SA I
                  A SA I SHI
                  I TO U TSU
                  KA JI U U JI
                  KO UCHI

                  Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
                  tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
                  them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
                  know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
                  so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
                  usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
                  are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
                  just about anything else.

                  > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                  > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                  > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                  Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
                  to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

                  Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
                  sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

                  Syllable:
                  1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
                  sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
                  any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
                  consonants.
                  2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
                  approximate a spoken syllable.
                  (from http://dictionary.com)

                  So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
                  has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
                  takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

                  Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
                  they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
                  RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
                  pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
                  that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
                  you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
                  the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
                  O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
                  diphthongs.

                  -Ii
                • Michael Peters
                  I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
                    technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                    interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
                    pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
                    could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
                    Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
                    lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
                    brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
                    As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
                    inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
                    pronunciation would probably be the best.


                    >Greetings from Solveig!
                    >
                    >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                    >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                    >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                    >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                    >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                    >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
                    http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
                  • chasrmartin
                    ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                      wrote:

                      but
                      > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                      > ooh.

                      Tsoup.
                    • chasrmartin
                      Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                        wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                        the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                        pronounce Japanese adequately.

                        One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                        Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                        single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                        pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                        and second "p".

                        - Mugyo
                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                        ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                          > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                          > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                          > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                          Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                          that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                          to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                          was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                          Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                          -Ii
                        • lawrence warnock
                          I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                            to far, I just delete the email ;p

                            Miguru

                            >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                            >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                            >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                            >
                            >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                            > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                            > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                            > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                            >
                            >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                            >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                            >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                            >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                            >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                            >
                            >-Ii

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
                            Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig!

                              > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                              > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                              > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                              > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                              > and second "p".

                              Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                              should
                              be tension and stopped air involved.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.