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Re: Going Sanada

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  • wodeford
    ... I think it s specific to the letter u. This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
      >
      > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
      > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
      > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
      > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

      I think it's specific to the letter "u."
      This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
      http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm

      Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
    • deanna.baran
      ... saying desoo rather than des . Remembering nan desu ka was pronounced nandeska really helped with that part. We had similar collective difficulty
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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        > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
        > really has me confused.

        ---When I took a Japanese class, we all had difficulty with those u's.
        :o) Mostly it was with "desu"-- it made the teacher smile when we kept
        saying "desoo" rather than "des". Remembering "nan desu ka" was
        pronounced "nandeska" really helped with that part.

        We had similar collective difficulty with remembering how to pronounce
        "tsu". It took a lot of practice to remember "ts"; we always felt like
        we were making those little interrupting noises. :o)

        I'm sure I'll be corrected if it's bad advice, but we were told, as
        beginners, to give the different syllables equal weight and equal
        length, unlike, say, Spanish, where the difference between papa and
        papá makes all the difference. :o) Not emphasizing and not lingering
        on any particular syllable was a good way to start, though not a good
        place to stop.

        Hope that helps!
        -Deanna
      • jrwences
        ... http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm ... The vowels u and i are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@> wrote:
          > >
          > > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
          > > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
          > > *love* sitting and listening to those samurai flicks and how they
          > > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.
          >
          > I think it's specific to the letter "u."
          > This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
          >
          http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm
          >
          > Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
          >
          The vowels "u" and "i" are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
          "yu" is a different vowel sound from "u" and does not get this treatment.
        • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
          ... Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable... but not
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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            On 3/6/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
            > > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.
            >
            > thank you :)
            >
            > >
            > > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
            > > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
            > >
            >
            > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
            > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
            > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
            > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

            Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
            two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
            but not necessarily).

            So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
            to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
            should sound. Other examples:

            'Nobu-naga' (And I can't see 'Nob-naga', so you don't always drop the 'u')
            'Ie-yasu'
            'Toyo-tomi'
            'Haru-aki'
            'Aki-tada'
            'Tada-yuki'
            etc.

            Even art or religious names often follow this rule, although it is
            harder to see:
            'Shin-gen' (SHI N GE N)
            'Ken-shin' (KE N SHI N)
            'Sei-mei' (SE I ME I)
            'Do-man' (DO U MA N)

            This isn't perfect, but if there are four characters it is usually two
            characters per kanji. Then you have names like 'Kobayakawa'
            (Ko-baya-kawa) that blow it all out of the water!

            > Thank you for the kind words :)
            > -Jason/Katsu

            No problem--thank you for sharing.


            -Ii Katsumori
          • chasrmartin
            ... Um, do you mean read kana ? Kanji often have multiple readings; for example the first character in my secular name can be either yuki or sachi , and
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
              <tatsushu@...> wrote:

              > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
              > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
              > but not necessarily).

              Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
              example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
              "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

              >
              > So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
              > to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
              > should sound.

              This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
              word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
              syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

              The two things that really can trip you up are that an -n not followed
              by a vowel *is a syllable*, and that japanese has short and long
              vowels --- which is to say, two vowels in a row both get a beat, even
              if they're the samje vowel. So my "ancestral" village, Shingu, in
              Wakayama Prefecture, is "shi-n-gu", Ieyasu is "I-e-ya-s(u)". The
              respectful form of 'desu', which is written 'deshoo' or 'deshou', has
              three syllables, so de-sho-o ka?

              Oh, one more thing to mention: any of the places you see a syllable
              with a consonant and a 'y' is generally a single syllable. My secular
              name is "Yukio", three syllables -- "Yukyo" would be two syllables.

              - Mugyo (two syllables)
            • chasrmartin
              By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
                (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
                day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

                - Mugyo
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                  Noble Cousins!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
                  > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

                  No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                  Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                  doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                  myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                  (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                  a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

                  Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
                  in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

                  KA sounds like what a crow says
                  KI sounds like key
                  KU sounds like what a pigeon says
                  KE sounds like the beginning of kept
                  KO sounds like the beginning of core

                  I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
                  TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                  ooh.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar





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                • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                  ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                    On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                    > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                    > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                    > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                    > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                    > > but not necessarily).
                    >
                    > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                    > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                    > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                    No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
                    that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
                    kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
                    up.

                    Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
                    Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
                    O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

                    How about:
                    TO U JO U
                    SO U MA
                    A O NO
                    U RA I SA I
                    A SA I SHI
                    I TO U TSU
                    KA JI U U JI
                    KO UCHI

                    Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
                    tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
                    them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
                    know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
                    so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
                    usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
                    are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
                    just about anything else.

                    > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                    > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                    > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                    Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
                    to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

                    Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
                    sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

                    Syllable:
                    1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
                    sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
                    any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
                    consonants.
                    2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
                    approximate a spoken syllable.
                    (from http://dictionary.com)

                    So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
                    has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
                    takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

                    Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
                    they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
                    RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
                    pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
                    that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
                    you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
                    the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
                    O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
                    diphthongs.

                    -Ii
                  • Michael Peters
                    I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                      I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
                      technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                      interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
                      pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
                      could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
                      Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
                      lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
                      brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
                      As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
                      inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
                      pronunciation would probably be the best.


                      >Greetings from Solveig!
                      >
                      >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                      >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                      >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                      >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                      >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                      >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

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                    • chasrmartin
                      ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                        wrote:

                        but
                        > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                        > ooh.

                        Tsoup.
                      • chasrmartin
                        Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                          Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                          wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                          the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                          pronounce Japanese adequately.

                          One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                          Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                          single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                          pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                          and second "p".

                          - Mugyo
                        • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                          ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                            On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                            > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                            > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                            > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                            Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                            that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                            to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                            was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                            Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                            -Ii
                          • lawrence warnock
                            I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                              I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                              to far, I just delete the email ;p

                              Miguru

                              >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                              >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                              >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                              >
                              >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                              > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                              > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                              > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                              >
                              >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                              >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                              >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                              >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                              >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                              >
                              >-Ii

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                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                                > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                                > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                                > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                                > and second "p".

                                Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                                should
                                be tension and stopped air involved.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar





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