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Re: Going Sanada

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  • Jason Adams
    ... thank you :) ... ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
      > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.

      thank you :)


      >
      > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
      > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
      >

      ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
      really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
      *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
      pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.


      > Good luck, tabi still give me fits for some reason. The rest of the
      > clothing is generally nice angles, but the tabi and the toes. Sigh.
      >

      No doubt! I did my first pait in cloth uppers with leather soles...
      heh, waste of leather :( Im sure someone with size 9 feet could wear
      them though!!!! lol


      > -Ii

      Thank you for the kind words :)
      -Jason/Katsu
    • wodeford
      ... I think it s specific to the letter u. This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
        >
        > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
        > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
        > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
        > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

        I think it's specific to the letter "u."
        This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
        http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm

        Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
      • deanna.baran
        ... saying desoo rather than des . Remembering nan desu ka was pronounced nandeska really helped with that part. We had similar collective difficulty
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
          > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
          > really has me confused.

          ---When I took a Japanese class, we all had difficulty with those u's.
          :o) Mostly it was with "desu"-- it made the teacher smile when we kept
          saying "desoo" rather than "des". Remembering "nan desu ka" was
          pronounced "nandeska" really helped with that part.

          We had similar collective difficulty with remembering how to pronounce
          "tsu". It took a lot of practice to remember "ts"; we always felt like
          we were making those little interrupting noises. :o)

          I'm sure I'll be corrected if it's bad advice, but we were told, as
          beginners, to give the different syllables equal weight and equal
          length, unlike, say, Spanish, where the difference between papa and
          papá makes all the difference. :o) Not emphasizing and not lingering
          on any particular syllable was a good way to start, though not a good
          place to stop.

          Hope that helps!
          -Deanna
        • jrwences
          ... http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm ... The vowels u and i are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@> wrote:
            > >
            > > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
            > > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
            > > *love* sitting and listening to those samurai flicks and how they
            > > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.
            >
            > I think it's specific to the letter "u."
            > This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
            >
            http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm
            >
            > Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
            >
            The vowels "u" and "i" are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
            "yu" is a different vowel sound from "u" and does not get this treatment.
          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
            ... Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable... but not
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
              On 3/6/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
              > > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.
              >
              > thank you :)
              >
              > >
              > > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
              > > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
              > >
              >
              > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
              > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
              > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
              > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

              Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
              two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
              but not necessarily).

              So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
              to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
              should sound. Other examples:

              'Nobu-naga' (And I can't see 'Nob-naga', so you don't always drop the 'u')
              'Ie-yasu'
              'Toyo-tomi'
              'Haru-aki'
              'Aki-tada'
              'Tada-yuki'
              etc.

              Even art or religious names often follow this rule, although it is
              harder to see:
              'Shin-gen' (SHI N GE N)
              'Ken-shin' (KE N SHI N)
              'Sei-mei' (SE I ME I)
              'Do-man' (DO U MA N)

              This isn't perfect, but if there are four characters it is usually two
              characters per kanji. Then you have names like 'Kobayakawa'
              (Ko-baya-kawa) that blow it all out of the water!

              > Thank you for the kind words :)
              > -Jason/Katsu

              No problem--thank you for sharing.


              -Ii Katsumori
            • chasrmartin
              ... Um, do you mean read kana ? Kanji often have multiple readings; for example the first character in my secular name can be either yuki or sachi , and
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                <tatsushu@...> wrote:

                > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                > but not necessarily).

                Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                >
                > So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
                > to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
                > should sound.

                This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                The two things that really can trip you up are that an -n not followed
                by a vowel *is a syllable*, and that japanese has short and long
                vowels --- which is to say, two vowels in a row both get a beat, even
                if they're the samje vowel. So my "ancestral" village, Shingu, in
                Wakayama Prefecture, is "shi-n-gu", Ieyasu is "I-e-ya-s(u)". The
                respectful form of 'desu', which is written 'deshoo' or 'deshou', has
                three syllables, so de-sho-o ka?

                Oh, one more thing to mention: any of the places you see a syllable
                with a consonant and a 'y' is generally a single syllable. My secular
                name is "Yukio", three syllables -- "Yukyo" would be two syllables.

                - Mugyo (two syllables)
              • chasrmartin
                By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                  By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
                  (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
                  day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

                  - Mugyo
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                    Noble Cousins!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
                    > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

                    No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                    Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                    doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                    myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                    (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                    a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

                    Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
                    in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

                    KA sounds like what a crow says
                    KI sounds like key
                    KU sounds like what a pigeon says
                    KE sounds like the beginning of kept
                    KO sounds like the beginning of core

                    I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
                    TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                    ooh.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                    ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                      On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                      > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                      > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                      > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                      > > but not necessarily).
                      >
                      > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                      > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                      > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                      No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
                      that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
                      kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
                      up.

                      Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
                      Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
                      O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

                      How about:
                      TO U JO U
                      SO U MA
                      A O NO
                      U RA I SA I
                      A SA I SHI
                      I TO U TSU
                      KA JI U U JI
                      KO UCHI

                      Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
                      tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
                      them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
                      know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
                      so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
                      usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
                      are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
                      just about anything else.

                      > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                      > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                      > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                      Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
                      to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

                      Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
                      sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

                      Syllable:
                      1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
                      sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
                      any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
                      consonants.
                      2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
                      approximate a spoken syllable.
                      (from http://dictionary.com)

                      So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
                      has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
                      takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

                      Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
                      they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
                      RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
                      pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
                      that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
                      you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
                      the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
                      O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
                      diphthongs.

                      -Ii
                    • Michael Peters
                      I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                        I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
                        technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                        interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
                        pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
                        could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
                        Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
                        lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
                        brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
                        As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
                        inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
                        pronunciation would probably be the best.


                        >Greetings from Solveig!
                        >
                        >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                        >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                        >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                        >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                        >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                        >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

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                      • chasrmartin
                        ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                          wrote:

                          but
                          > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                          > ooh.

                          Tsoup.
                        • chasrmartin
                          Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                            Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                            wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                            the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                            pronounce Japanese adequately.

                            One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                            Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                            single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                            pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                            and second "p".

                            - Mugyo
                          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                            ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                              On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                              > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                              > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                              > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                              Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                              that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                              to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                              was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                              Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                              -Ii
                            • lawrence warnock
                              I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                                to far, I just delete the email ;p

                                Miguru

                                >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                                >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                                >
                                >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                                >
                                >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                                >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                                >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                                >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                                >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                                >
                                >-Ii

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                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                                  > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                                  > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                                  > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                                  > and second "p".

                                  Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                                  should
                                  be tension and stopped air involved.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar





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