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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada

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  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
    ... I would say it is probably more KATS -YU-kee . Just start saying Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee fast. I can t find my sources right now for some reason (they tend to
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
      On 3/5/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks Mykaru and Saionji (as always :) lol)
      >
      > Ah, Sanada-dono sounds good :) Its always more warm-tingly to belong
      > somewhere isnt it?

      :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.

      > I did a search on "Katsuyuki" and it seems to be a pretty rare name
      > all together. There is a doctor nowadays that uses it and an athlete,
      > but I havent seen any Katsuyuki in pre-modern texts at all (of caorse,
      > Im not the ultimate library by any means LOL). I really like it too.
      > It just rolls off of the tongue, if spoken anything like what Ive
      > heard in Mifune and Kurosawa movies. It should sound something like
      > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY". Pretty Jazzy!!

      I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
      'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.

      I can't find my sources right now for some reason (they tend to run
      away and hide--especially in the morning) but I wouldn't worry too
      much about making a case. It sounds right.

      > As for those pattern, d'oh!! I didnt even think to check the files.
      > but THANK YOU, as I now have some pretty gol-darned hot Hakama I made
      > over last night and this morning!! w00t!

      :) Very cool!

      > Im totaly digging your site, Saionji. The kosode seems to be pretty
      > do-able next. The tabi.... I think Im going to buy a modern pair of
      > "festival tabi" and cut them apart, just so I have the whole TOE AREA
      > in finite! Thats what is killing me with my own tabi experiments.
      > Altering those for period use by extending the shank and adding the
      > ties around the ankle, etc are easily done. Bottomly has a good side
      > shot of period tabi in "Arms and Armour" Ive been working off of.

      That side shot is what I worked my first pair off of (Note: Work your
      first pair in fabric, then transfer it to a leather pattern, unless
      leather is as easy as fabric to you--my first pair were horrible!).
      Good luck, tabi still give me fits for some reason. The rest of the
      clothing is generally nice angles, but the tabi and the toes. Sigh.

      Again, good luck, and welcome, Sanada-dono!


      -Ii
    • Jason Adams
      Oh! Yes yes! Please see my site which depicts my progress. I will put the pics of my hakama as soon as my wife can snap one off of me :)
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
        Oh! Yes yes! Please see my site which depicts my progress. I will
        put the pics of my hakama as soon as my wife can snap one off of me :)

        http://banditt.uber-geek.us/japan/armour/armourindex.html

        Im also compiling a little ditty about my character background (just
        to try and get it right in my head), but thats a REAL work in
        progress!!! Im constantly changing things....

        http://banditt.uber-geek.us/japan/japan1.html

        -Jason/Katsu

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:

        > Dare we hope for pictures of finished products?
        >
        > Saionji no Hanae
        > West
        >
      • Jason Adams
        ... thank you :) ... ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
          > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.

          thank you :)


          >
          > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
          > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
          >

          ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
          really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
          *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
          pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.


          > Good luck, tabi still give me fits for some reason. The rest of the
          > clothing is generally nice angles, but the tabi and the toes. Sigh.
          >

          No doubt! I did my first pait in cloth uppers with leather soles...
          heh, waste of leather :( Im sure someone with size 9 feet could wear
          them though!!!! lol


          > -Ii

          Thank you for the kind words :)
          -Jason/Katsu
        • wodeford
          ... I think it s specific to the letter u. This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
            >
            > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
            > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
            > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
            > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

            I think it's specific to the letter "u."
            This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
            http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm

            Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
          • deanna.baran
            ... saying desoo rather than des . Remembering nan desu ka was pronounced nandeska really helped with that part. We had similar collective difficulty
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
              > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
              > really has me confused.

              ---When I took a Japanese class, we all had difficulty with those u's.
              :o) Mostly it was with "desu"-- it made the teacher smile when we kept
              saying "desoo" rather than "des". Remembering "nan desu ka" was
              pronounced "nandeska" really helped with that part.

              We had similar collective difficulty with remembering how to pronounce
              "tsu". It took a lot of practice to remember "ts"; we always felt like
              we were making those little interrupting noises. :o)

              I'm sure I'll be corrected if it's bad advice, but we were told, as
              beginners, to give the different syllables equal weight and equal
              length, unlike, say, Spanish, where the difference between papa and
              papá makes all the difference. :o) Not emphasizing and not lingering
              on any particular syllable was a good way to start, though not a good
              place to stop.

              Hope that helps!
              -Deanna
            • jrwences
              ... http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm ... The vowels u and i are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@> wrote:
                > >
                > > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                > > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                > > *love* sitting and listening to those samurai flicks and how they
                > > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.
                >
                > I think it's specific to the letter "u."
                > This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
                >
                http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm
                >
                > Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
                >
                The vowels "u" and "i" are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
                "yu" is a different vowel sound from "u" and does not get this treatment.
              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                ... Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable... but not
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
                  On 3/6/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                  > > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.
                  >
                  > thank you :)
                  >
                  > >
                  > > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
                  > > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
                  > >
                  >
                  > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                  > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                  > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
                  > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

                  Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                  two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                  but not necessarily).

                  So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
                  to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
                  should sound. Other examples:

                  'Nobu-naga' (And I can't see 'Nob-naga', so you don't always drop the 'u')
                  'Ie-yasu'
                  'Toyo-tomi'
                  'Haru-aki'
                  'Aki-tada'
                  'Tada-yuki'
                  etc.

                  Even art or religious names often follow this rule, although it is
                  harder to see:
                  'Shin-gen' (SHI N GE N)
                  'Ken-shin' (KE N SHI N)
                  'Sei-mei' (SE I ME I)
                  'Do-man' (DO U MA N)

                  This isn't perfect, but if there are four characters it is usually two
                  characters per kanji. Then you have names like 'Kobayakawa'
                  (Ko-baya-kawa) that blow it all out of the water!

                  > Thank you for the kind words :)
                  > -Jason/Katsu

                  No problem--thank you for sharing.


                  -Ii Katsumori
                • chasrmartin
                  ... Um, do you mean read kana ? Kanji often have multiple readings; for example the first character in my secular name can be either yuki or sachi , and
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                    <tatsushu@...> wrote:

                    > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                    > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                    > but not necessarily).

                    Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                    example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                    "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                    >
                    > So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
                    > to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
                    > should sound.

                    This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                    word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                    syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                    The two things that really can trip you up are that an -n not followed
                    by a vowel *is a syllable*, and that japanese has short and long
                    vowels --- which is to say, two vowels in a row both get a beat, even
                    if they're the samje vowel. So my "ancestral" village, Shingu, in
                    Wakayama Prefecture, is "shi-n-gu", Ieyasu is "I-e-ya-s(u)". The
                    respectful form of 'desu', which is written 'deshoo' or 'deshou', has
                    three syllables, so de-sho-o ka?

                    Oh, one more thing to mention: any of the places you see a syllable
                    with a consonant and a 'y' is generally a single syllable. My secular
                    name is "Yukio", three syllables -- "Yukyo" would be two syllables.

                    - Mugyo (two syllables)
                  • chasrmartin
                    By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                      By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
                      (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
                      day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

                      - Mugyo
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                        Noble Cousins!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
                        > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

                        No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                        Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                        doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                        myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                        (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                        a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

                        Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
                        in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

                        KA sounds like what a crow says
                        KI sounds like key
                        KU sounds like what a pigeon says
                        KE sounds like the beginning of kept
                        KO sounds like the beginning of core

                        I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
                        TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                        ooh.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                        ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                          On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                          > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                          > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                          > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                          > > but not necessarily).
                          >
                          > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                          > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                          > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                          No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
                          that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
                          kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
                          up.

                          Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
                          Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
                          O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

                          How about:
                          TO U JO U
                          SO U MA
                          A O NO
                          U RA I SA I
                          A SA I SHI
                          I TO U TSU
                          KA JI U U JI
                          KO UCHI

                          Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
                          tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
                          them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
                          know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
                          so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
                          usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
                          are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
                          just about anything else.

                          > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                          > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                          > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                          Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
                          to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

                          Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
                          sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

                          Syllable:
                          1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
                          sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
                          any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
                          consonants.
                          2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
                          approximate a spoken syllable.
                          (from http://dictionary.com)

                          So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
                          has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
                          takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

                          Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
                          they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
                          RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
                          pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
                          that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
                          you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
                          the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
                          O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
                          diphthongs.

                          -Ii
                        • Michael Peters
                          I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                            I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
                            technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                            interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
                            pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
                            could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
                            Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
                            lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
                            brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
                            As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
                            inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
                            pronunciation would probably be the best.


                            >Greetings from Solveig!
                            >
                            >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                            >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                            >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                            >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                            >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                            >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

                            _________________________________________________________________
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                          • chasrmartin
                            ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                              wrote:

                              but
                              > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                              > ooh.

                              Tsoup.
                            • chasrmartin
                              Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                pronounce Japanese adequately.

                                One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                                Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                                single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                                pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                                and second "p".

                                - Mugyo
                              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                  On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                  > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                  > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                  > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                                  Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                                  that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                                  to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                                  was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                                  Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                                  -Ii
                                • lawrence warnock
                                  I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                    I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                                    to far, I just delete the email ;p

                                    Miguru

                                    >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                    >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                                    >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                                    >
                                    >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                    > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                    > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                    > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                                    >
                                    >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                                    >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                                    >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                                    >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                                    >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                                    >
                                    >-Ii

                                    _________________________________________________________________
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                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!

                                      > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                                      > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                                      > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                                      > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                                      > and second "p".

                                      Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                                      should
                                      be tension and stopped air involved.

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar





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