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Re: Going Sanada

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  • Jason Adams
    Thanks Mykaru and Saionji (as always :) lol) Ah, Sanada-dono sounds good :) Its always more warm-tingly to belong somewhere isnt it? I did a search on
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 5, 2007
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      Thanks Mykaru and Saionji (as always :) lol)

      Ah, Sanada-dono sounds good :) Its always more warm-tingly to belong
      somewhere isnt it?

      I did a search on "Katsuyuki" and it seems to be a pretty rare name
      all together. There is a doctor nowadays that uses it and an athlete,
      but I havent seen any Katsuyuki in pre-modern texts at all (of caorse,
      Im not the ultimate library by any means LOL). I really like it too.
      It just rolls off of the tongue, if spoken anything like what Ive
      heard in Mifune and Kurosawa movies. It should sound something like
      "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY". Pretty Jazzy!!

      As for those pattern, d'oh!! I didnt even think to check the files.
      but THANK YOU, as I now have some pretty gol-darned hot Hakama I made
      over last night and this morning!! w00t!

      Im a slave for period fashion, I go for just the right material,
      organic thread, etc. So Im glad you pointed out that those folk wear
      patterns would need altered :( I would hate to do all that work and
      have it "off".

      Im totaly digging your site, Saionji. The kosode seems to be pretty
      do-able next. The tabi.... I think Im going to buy a modern pair of
      "festival tabi" and cut them apart, just so I have the whole TOE AREA
      in finite! Thats what is killing me with my own tabi experiments.
      Altering those for period use by extending the shank and adding the
      ties around the ankle, etc are easily done. Bottomly has a good side
      shot of period tabi in "Arms and Armour" Ive been working off of.

      Thanks again cousins!!!!
      -Jason/Katsu
    • wodeford
      ... Atta boy! I knew you could. ... Don t get me wrong, I have heard good things about the pattern line - it s just that they would require alterations to
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 5, 2007
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:

        > As for those pattern, d'oh!! I didnt even think to check the files.
        > but THANK YOU, as I now have some pretty gol-darned hot Hakama I made
        > over last night and this morning!! w00t!

        Atta boy! I knew you could.

        > Im a slave for period fashion, I go for just the right material,
        > organic thread, etc. So Im glad you pointed out that those folk wear
        > patterns would need altered :( I would hate to do all that work and
        > have it "off".
        Don't get me wrong, I have heard good things about the pattern line -
        it's just that they would require alterations to bring them backwards
        on the timeline. ;->


        > The tabi.... I think Im going to buy a modern pair of
        > "festival tabi" and cut them apart, just so I have the whole TOE AREA
        > in finite!
        Yup. Easy cheat - open up the front seam a couple of inches, close up
        the seam at the back of the ankle and add ties.

        Dare we hope for pictures of finished products?

        Saionji no Hanae
        West
      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
        ... I would say it is probably more KATS -YU-kee . Just start saying Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee fast. I can t find my sources right now for some reason (they tend to
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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          On 3/5/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks Mykaru and Saionji (as always :) lol)
          >
          > Ah, Sanada-dono sounds good :) Its always more warm-tingly to belong
          > somewhere isnt it?

          :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.

          > I did a search on "Katsuyuki" and it seems to be a pretty rare name
          > all together. There is a doctor nowadays that uses it and an athlete,
          > but I havent seen any Katsuyuki in pre-modern texts at all (of caorse,
          > Im not the ultimate library by any means LOL). I really like it too.
          > It just rolls off of the tongue, if spoken anything like what Ive
          > heard in Mifune and Kurosawa movies. It should sound something like
          > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY". Pretty Jazzy!!

          I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
          'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.

          I can't find my sources right now for some reason (they tend to run
          away and hide--especially in the morning) but I wouldn't worry too
          much about making a case. It sounds right.

          > As for those pattern, d'oh!! I didnt even think to check the files.
          > but THANK YOU, as I now have some pretty gol-darned hot Hakama I made
          > over last night and this morning!! w00t!

          :) Very cool!

          > Im totaly digging your site, Saionji. The kosode seems to be pretty
          > do-able next. The tabi.... I think Im going to buy a modern pair of
          > "festival tabi" and cut them apart, just so I have the whole TOE AREA
          > in finite! Thats what is killing me with my own tabi experiments.
          > Altering those for period use by extending the shank and adding the
          > ties around the ankle, etc are easily done. Bottomly has a good side
          > shot of period tabi in "Arms and Armour" Ive been working off of.

          That side shot is what I worked my first pair off of (Note: Work your
          first pair in fabric, then transfer it to a leather pattern, unless
          leather is as easy as fabric to you--my first pair were horrible!).
          Good luck, tabi still give me fits for some reason. The rest of the
          clothing is generally nice angles, but the tabi and the toes. Sigh.

          Again, good luck, and welcome, Sanada-dono!


          -Ii
        • Jason Adams
          Oh! Yes yes! Please see my site which depicts my progress. I will put the pics of my hakama as soon as my wife can snap one off of me :)
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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            Oh! Yes yes! Please see my site which depicts my progress. I will
            put the pics of my hakama as soon as my wife can snap one off of me :)

            http://banditt.uber-geek.us/japan/armour/armourindex.html

            Im also compiling a little ditty about my character background (just
            to try and get it right in my head), but thats a REAL work in
            progress!!! Im constantly changing things....

            http://banditt.uber-geek.us/japan/japan1.html

            -Jason/Katsu

            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:

            > Dare we hope for pictures of finished products?
            >
            > Saionji no Hanae
            > West
            >
          • Jason Adams
            ... thank you :) ... ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
              > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.

              thank you :)


              >
              > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
              > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
              >

              ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
              really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
              *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
              pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.


              > Good luck, tabi still give me fits for some reason. The rest of the
              > clothing is generally nice angles, but the tabi and the toes. Sigh.
              >

              No doubt! I did my first pait in cloth uppers with leather soles...
              heh, waste of leather :( Im sure someone with size 9 feet could wear
              them though!!!! lol


              > -Ii

              Thank you for the kind words :)
              -Jason/Katsu
            • wodeford
              ... I think it s specific to the letter u. This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                >
                > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
                > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

                I think it's specific to the letter "u."
                This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
                http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm

                Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
              • deanna.baran
                ... saying desoo rather than des . Remembering nan desu ka was pronounced nandeska really helped with that part. We had similar collective difficulty
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                  > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                  > really has me confused.

                  ---When I took a Japanese class, we all had difficulty with those u's.
                  :o) Mostly it was with "desu"-- it made the teacher smile when we kept
                  saying "desoo" rather than "des". Remembering "nan desu ka" was
                  pronounced "nandeska" really helped with that part.

                  We had similar collective difficulty with remembering how to pronounce
                  "tsu". It took a lot of practice to remember "ts"; we always felt like
                  we were making those little interrupting noises. :o)

                  I'm sure I'll be corrected if it's bad advice, but we were told, as
                  beginners, to give the different syllables equal weight and equal
                  length, unlike, say, Spanish, where the difference between papa and
                  papá makes all the difference. :o) Not emphasizing and not lingering
                  on any particular syllable was a good way to start, though not a good
                  place to stop.

                  Hope that helps!
                  -Deanna
                • jrwences
                  ... http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm ... The vowels u and i are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                    > > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                    > > *love* sitting and listening to those samurai flicks and how they
                    > > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.
                    >
                    > I think it's specific to the letter "u."
                    > This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
                    >
                    http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm
                    >
                    > Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
                    >
                    The vowels "u" and "i" are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
                    "yu" is a different vowel sound from "u" and does not get this treatment.
                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                    ... Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable... but not
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
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                      On 3/6/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                      > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                      > > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.
                      >
                      > thank you :)
                      >
                      > >
                      > > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
                      > > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
                      > >
                      >
                      > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                      > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                      > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
                      > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

                      Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                      two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                      but not necessarily).

                      So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
                      to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
                      should sound. Other examples:

                      'Nobu-naga' (And I can't see 'Nob-naga', so you don't always drop the 'u')
                      'Ie-yasu'
                      'Toyo-tomi'
                      'Haru-aki'
                      'Aki-tada'
                      'Tada-yuki'
                      etc.

                      Even art or religious names often follow this rule, although it is
                      harder to see:
                      'Shin-gen' (SHI N GE N)
                      'Ken-shin' (KE N SHI N)
                      'Sei-mei' (SE I ME I)
                      'Do-man' (DO U MA N)

                      This isn't perfect, but if there are four characters it is usually two
                      characters per kanji. Then you have names like 'Kobayakawa'
                      (Ko-baya-kawa) that blow it all out of the water!

                      > Thank you for the kind words :)
                      > -Jason/Katsu

                      No problem--thank you for sharing.


                      -Ii Katsumori
                    • chasrmartin
                      ... Um, do you mean read kana ? Kanji often have multiple readings; for example the first character in my secular name can be either yuki or sachi , and
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                        <tatsushu@...> wrote:

                        > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                        > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                        > but not necessarily).

                        Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                        example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                        "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                        >
                        > So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
                        > to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
                        > should sound.

                        This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                        word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                        syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                        The two things that really can trip you up are that an -n not followed
                        by a vowel *is a syllable*, and that japanese has short and long
                        vowels --- which is to say, two vowels in a row both get a beat, even
                        if they're the samje vowel. So my "ancestral" village, Shingu, in
                        Wakayama Prefecture, is "shi-n-gu", Ieyasu is "I-e-ya-s(u)". The
                        respectful form of 'desu', which is written 'deshoo' or 'deshou', has
                        three syllables, so de-sho-o ka?

                        Oh, one more thing to mention: any of the places you see a syllable
                        with a consonant and a 'y' is generally a single syllable. My secular
                        name is "Yukio", three syllables -- "Yukyo" would be two syllables.

                        - Mugyo (two syllables)
                      • chasrmartin
                        By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                          By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
                          (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
                          day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

                          - Mugyo
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                            Noble Cousins!

                            Greetings from Solveig!

                            > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
                            > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

                            No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                            Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                            doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                            myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                            (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                            a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

                            Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
                            in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

                            KA sounds like what a crow says
                            KI sounds like key
                            KU sounds like what a pigeon says
                            KE sounds like the beginning of kept
                            KO sounds like the beginning of core

                            I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
                            TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                            ooh.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                            ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                              On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                              > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                              > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                              > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                              > > but not necessarily).
                              >
                              > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                              > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                              > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                              No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
                              that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
                              kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
                              up.

                              Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
                              Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
                              O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

                              How about:
                              TO U JO U
                              SO U MA
                              A O NO
                              U RA I SA I
                              A SA I SHI
                              I TO U TSU
                              KA JI U U JI
                              KO UCHI

                              Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
                              tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
                              them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
                              know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
                              so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
                              usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
                              are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
                              just about anything else.

                              > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                              > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                              > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                              Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
                              to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

                              Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
                              sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

                              Syllable:
                              1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
                              sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
                              any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
                              consonants.
                              2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
                              approximate a spoken syllable.
                              (from http://dictionary.com)

                              So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
                              has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
                              takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

                              Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
                              they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
                              RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
                              pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
                              that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
                              you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
                              the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
                              O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
                              diphthongs.

                              -Ii
                            • Michael Peters
                              I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
                                technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                                interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
                                pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
                                could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
                                Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
                                lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
                                brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
                                As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
                                inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
                                pronunciation would probably be the best.


                                >Greetings from Solveig!
                                >
                                >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                                >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                                >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                                >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                                >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                                >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

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                              • chasrmartin
                                ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                  wrote:

                                  but
                                  > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                                  > ooh.

                                  Tsoup.
                                • chasrmartin
                                  Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                                    Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                    wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                    the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                    pronounce Japanese adequately.

                                    One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                                    Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                                    single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                                    pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                                    and second "p".

                                    - Mugyo
                                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                    ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                                      On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                      > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                      > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                      > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                                      Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                                      that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                                      to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                                      was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                                      Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                                      -Ii
                                    • lawrence warnock
                                      I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                                        I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                                        to far, I just delete the email ;p

                                        Miguru

                                        >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                        >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                                        >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                                        >
                                        >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                        > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                        > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                        > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                                        >
                                        >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                                        >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                                        >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                                        >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                                        >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                                        >
                                        >-Ii

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                                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
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                                          Noble Cousin!

                                          Greetings from Solveig!

                                          > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                                          > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                                          > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                                          > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                                          > and second "p".

                                          Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                                          should
                                          be tension and stopped air involved.

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar





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