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Re: Going Sanada

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  • wodeford
    ... Wanna bet? There are patterns for lots of things at the Files section that you can use. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ The
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 4, 2007
      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
      > Ive started on my hakama today, even tried making tabi socks, but that
      > failed :( http://www.folkwear.com/ is supposed to have excellent
      > patterns, so I think Ill just drop $35 and get some for heavens sake!
      > lol Cant make everything by yourself, right?
      Wanna bet? There are patterns for lots of things at the "Files"
      section that you can use.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/
      The only thing that's not in there is kosode (what they called kimono
      before they called them kimono) and I submit for your consideration my
      instructions on how to make them here:
      http://www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm

      The secret to making tabi is to cut big and fit them by sewing them
      onto your feet. You might find this thread from the Tousando board
      useful:
      http://tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=garb&action=display&thread=1161071600
      www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/ is currently down but try back in
      a couple of days. There's a how-to on Tabi there that will help.

      Warning Warning Warning, Will Robinson! Folkwear's patterns are for
      MODERN traditional clothing. If you use their patterns you are going
      to have to alter them anyway to make them appropriate for the 16th
      century. (1)Lose the koshi-ita (back board) on the hakama - there is
      some debate about whether or not this had developed by that period.
      (2) Widen the panels on the kimono and put a curve in the bottom edge
      of the sleeve (see my webpage).

      Good luck, Sanada-dono!

      Saionji no Hanae,
      West Kingdom
    • Michael Peters
      Jason, Not much of a names person myself, but. My brief check shows a Sanadas Nobutsuna,Masateru,Masayuki,Yukitaka,Nobuyuki, and Yukimura. No Katsuyuki that I
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 4, 2007
        Jason,

        Not much of a names person myself, but. My brief check shows a Sanadas
        Nobutsuna,Masateru,Masayuki,Yukitaka,Nobuyuki, and Yukimura. No Katsuyuki
        that I see so it looks good. That is from *1* reference book and I defer to
        others with more extensive name libraries.

        Mykaru


        >From: "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...>
        >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [SCA-JML] Going Sanada
        >Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 05:57:44 -0000
        >
        >Ok, Ive narrowed down my personna (for starting out). I really like
        >the Sanada family, retainers of the Takeda and lords of Shinano. I
        >*was* going akiyama (who held a castle in shinano) but have settled on
        >Sanada becasue they were heavily involved in some of my favorite
        >battles, including the 4th battle of Kawanakajima! :)
        >
        >My progress will be documented here:
        >http://banditt.uber-geek.us/japan/japan1.html
        >and
        >http://banditt.uber-geek.us/japan/armour/armourindex.html
        >
        >My name shall be "Sanada no Katsuyuki". I have chosen Katsuyuki,
        >because "yuki" appeares a couple of times in Sanada name use and Katsu
        >is used pretty darned often in Samuraidom all together.
        >
        >So, can anyone direct me to additional referrence regarding the Sanada
        >perhaps? Ive got Turnbull's book on Daimyo and thats working very
        >nicely (which is where that akiyama banner picture originates from
        >BTW). Skoss' Sword & Spirit has a translation of Takeda's 99 house
        >rules :) :) :) (still need to get it though), there are of coarse the
        >Osprey's on Kawanakajima and Nagashino though I have read they are
        >contradictory in numbers of troops fielded vs. casualty reports (?)
        >Some of the more generic and broad turnbulls have excerpts on Sanada
        >too.
        >
        >My local library is connected to the Cleveland branch "clevnet" all
        >over Ohio, but it is rather limited in specialty books. Its done
        >pretty well so far, but I cannot get any Osprey, nor the Sword &
        >Spirit by Skoss, or even anything on Kawanakajima :( If anyone has
        >some used book stores near-by (I dont) and happen across something,
        >please let me know!! Il shoot them an e-mail or letter or something.
        >
        >But this whole piecing info together bit by bit gets to me after a
        >while :) lol So if anyone has heard of something that deals on just
        >Takeda or Shinano province durring 1500's or something, please let me
        >know!
        >
        >Ive started on my hakama today, even tried making tabi socks, but that
        >failed :( http://www.folkwear.com/ is supposed to have excellent
        >patterns, so I think Ill just drop $35 and get some for heavens sake!
        >lol Cant make everything by yourself, right?
        >
        >As always, I thank you all for the kind help!
        >
        >-Jason ("Katsu")
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
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      • Jason Adams
        Thanks Mykaru and Saionji (as always :) lol) Ah, Sanada-dono sounds good :) Its always more warm-tingly to belong somewhere isnt it? I did a search on
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 5, 2007
          Thanks Mykaru and Saionji (as always :) lol)

          Ah, Sanada-dono sounds good :) Its always more warm-tingly to belong
          somewhere isnt it?

          I did a search on "Katsuyuki" and it seems to be a pretty rare name
          all together. There is a doctor nowadays that uses it and an athlete,
          but I havent seen any Katsuyuki in pre-modern texts at all (of caorse,
          Im not the ultimate library by any means LOL). I really like it too.
          It just rolls off of the tongue, if spoken anything like what Ive
          heard in Mifune and Kurosawa movies. It should sound something like
          "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY". Pretty Jazzy!!

          As for those pattern, d'oh!! I didnt even think to check the files.
          but THANK YOU, as I now have some pretty gol-darned hot Hakama I made
          over last night and this morning!! w00t!

          Im a slave for period fashion, I go for just the right material,
          organic thread, etc. So Im glad you pointed out that those folk wear
          patterns would need altered :( I would hate to do all that work and
          have it "off".

          Im totaly digging your site, Saionji. The kosode seems to be pretty
          do-able next. The tabi.... I think Im going to buy a modern pair of
          "festival tabi" and cut them apart, just so I have the whole TOE AREA
          in finite! Thats what is killing me with my own tabi experiments.
          Altering those for period use by extending the shank and adding the
          ties around the ankle, etc are easily done. Bottomly has a good side
          shot of period tabi in "Arms and Armour" Ive been working off of.

          Thanks again cousins!!!!
          -Jason/Katsu
        • wodeford
          ... Atta boy! I knew you could. ... Don t get me wrong, I have heard good things about the pattern line - it s just that they would require alterations to
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 5, 2007
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:

            > As for those pattern, d'oh!! I didnt even think to check the files.
            > but THANK YOU, as I now have some pretty gol-darned hot Hakama I made
            > over last night and this morning!! w00t!

            Atta boy! I knew you could.

            > Im a slave for period fashion, I go for just the right material,
            > organic thread, etc. So Im glad you pointed out that those folk wear
            > patterns would need altered :( I would hate to do all that work and
            > have it "off".
            Don't get me wrong, I have heard good things about the pattern line -
            it's just that they would require alterations to bring them backwards
            on the timeline. ;->


            > The tabi.... I think Im going to buy a modern pair of
            > "festival tabi" and cut them apart, just so I have the whole TOE AREA
            > in finite!
            Yup. Easy cheat - open up the front seam a couple of inches, close up
            the seam at the back of the ankle and add ties.

            Dare we hope for pictures of finished products?

            Saionji no Hanae
            West
          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
            ... I would say it is probably more KATS -YU-kee . Just start saying Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee fast. I can t find my sources right now for some reason (they tend to
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
              On 3/5/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Mykaru and Saionji (as always :) lol)
              >
              > Ah, Sanada-dono sounds good :) Its always more warm-tingly to belong
              > somewhere isnt it?

              :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.

              > I did a search on "Katsuyuki" and it seems to be a pretty rare name
              > all together. There is a doctor nowadays that uses it and an athlete,
              > but I havent seen any Katsuyuki in pre-modern texts at all (of caorse,
              > Im not the ultimate library by any means LOL). I really like it too.
              > It just rolls off of the tongue, if spoken anything like what Ive
              > heard in Mifune and Kurosawa movies. It should sound something like
              > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY". Pretty Jazzy!!

              I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
              'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.

              I can't find my sources right now for some reason (they tend to run
              away and hide--especially in the morning) but I wouldn't worry too
              much about making a case. It sounds right.

              > As for those pattern, d'oh!! I didnt even think to check the files.
              > but THANK YOU, as I now have some pretty gol-darned hot Hakama I made
              > over last night and this morning!! w00t!

              :) Very cool!

              > Im totaly digging your site, Saionji. The kosode seems to be pretty
              > do-able next. The tabi.... I think Im going to buy a modern pair of
              > "festival tabi" and cut them apart, just so I have the whole TOE AREA
              > in finite! Thats what is killing me with my own tabi experiments.
              > Altering those for period use by extending the shank and adding the
              > ties around the ankle, etc are easily done. Bottomly has a good side
              > shot of period tabi in "Arms and Armour" Ive been working off of.

              That side shot is what I worked my first pair off of (Note: Work your
              first pair in fabric, then transfer it to a leather pattern, unless
              leather is as easy as fabric to you--my first pair were horrible!).
              Good luck, tabi still give me fits for some reason. The rest of the
              clothing is generally nice angles, but the tabi and the toes. Sigh.

              Again, good luck, and welcome, Sanada-dono!


              -Ii
            • Jason Adams
              Oh! Yes yes! Please see my site which depicts my progress. I will put the pics of my hakama as soon as my wife can snap one off of me :)
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
                Oh! Yes yes! Please see my site which depicts my progress. I will
                put the pics of my hakama as soon as my wife can snap one off of me :)

                http://banditt.uber-geek.us/japan/armour/armourindex.html

                Im also compiling a little ditty about my character background (just
                to try and get it right in my head), but thats a REAL work in
                progress!!! Im constantly changing things....

                http://banditt.uber-geek.us/japan/japan1.html

                -Jason/Katsu

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:

                > Dare we hope for pictures of finished products?
                >
                > Saionji no Hanae
                > West
                >
              • Jason Adams
                ... thank you :) ... ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                  > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.

                  thank you :)


                  >
                  > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
                  > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
                  >

                  ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                  really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                  *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
                  pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.


                  > Good luck, tabi still give me fits for some reason. The rest of the
                  > clothing is generally nice angles, but the tabi and the toes. Sigh.
                  >

                  No doubt! I did my first pait in cloth uppers with leather soles...
                  heh, waste of leather :( Im sure someone with size 9 feet could wear
                  them though!!!! lol


                  > -Ii

                  Thank you for the kind words :)
                  -Jason/Katsu
                • wodeford
                  ... I think it s specific to the letter u. This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 6, 2007
                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                    > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                    > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
                    > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

                    I think it's specific to the letter "u."
                    This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
                    http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm

                    Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
                  • deanna.baran
                    ... saying desoo rather than des . Remembering nan desu ka was pronounced nandeska really helped with that part. We had similar collective difficulty
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
                      > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                      > really has me confused.

                      ---When I took a Japanese class, we all had difficulty with those u's.
                      :o) Mostly it was with "desu"-- it made the teacher smile when we kept
                      saying "desoo" rather than "des". Remembering "nan desu ka" was
                      pronounced "nandeska" really helped with that part.

                      We had similar collective difficulty with remembering how to pronounce
                      "tsu". It took a lot of practice to remember "ts"; we always felt like
                      we were making those little interrupting noises. :o)

                      I'm sure I'll be corrected if it's bad advice, but we were told, as
                      beginners, to give the different syllables equal weight and equal
                      length, unlike, say, Spanish, where the difference between papa and
                      papá makes all the difference. :o) Not emphasizing and not lingering
                      on any particular syllable was a good way to start, though not a good
                      place to stop.

                      Hope that helps!
                      -Deanna
                    • jrwences
                      ... http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm ... The vowels u and i are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                        > > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                        > > *love* sitting and listening to those samurai flicks and how they
                        > > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.
                        >
                        > I think it's specific to the letter "u."
                        > This is pretty basic, but it might help a little:
                        >
                        http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japanese_language/japanese_pronunciation.htm
                        >
                        > Saionji no Hanae, still learning a lot of this myself.
                        >
                        The vowels "u" and "i" are both frequently ghosted. Also note that
                        "yu" is a different vowel sound from "u" and does not get this treatment.
                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                        ... Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable... but not
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 7, 2007
                          On 3/6/07, Jason Adams <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                          > > :) It is a good choice. Congratulations, Sanada-dono.
                          >
                          > thank you :)
                          >
                          > >
                          > > I would say it is probably more "KATS'-YU-kee". Just start saying
                          > > 'Kah-tsoo-yoo-kee' fast.
                          > >
                          >
                          > ah, ok. That whole dropping the middle vowel thing the Japanese do
                          > really has me confused. Because, where IS the middle-point? lol I
                          > *love* sitting and listending to those samurai flicks and how they
                          > pronounce things and names. One of these days it will just click.

                          Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                          two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                          but not necessarily).

                          So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
                          to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
                          should sound. Other examples:

                          'Nobu-naga' (And I can't see 'Nob-naga', so you don't always drop the 'u')
                          'Ie-yasu'
                          'Toyo-tomi'
                          'Haru-aki'
                          'Aki-tada'
                          'Tada-yuki'
                          etc.

                          Even art or religious names often follow this rule, although it is
                          harder to see:
                          'Shin-gen' (SHI N GE N)
                          'Ken-shin' (KE N SHI N)
                          'Sei-mei' (SE I ME I)
                          'Do-man' (DO U MA N)

                          This isn't perfect, but if there are four characters it is usually two
                          characters per kanji. Then you have names like 'Kobayakawa'
                          (Ko-baya-kawa) that blow it all out of the water!

                          > Thank you for the kind words :)
                          > -Jason/Katsu

                          No problem--thank you for sharing.


                          -Ii Katsumori
                        • chasrmartin
                          ... Um, do you mean read kana ? Kanji often have multiple readings; for example the first character in my secular name can be either yuki or sachi , and
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                            <tatsushu@...> wrote:

                            > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                            > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                            > but not necessarily).

                            Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                            example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                            "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                            >
                            > So, "KA TSU YU KI" is "KA-TSU YU-KI". With names it is often better
                            > to pronounce everything unless you have a good 'feel' for how it
                            > should sound.

                            This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                            word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                            syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                            The two things that really can trip you up are that an -n not followed
                            by a vowel *is a syllable*, and that japanese has short and long
                            vowels --- which is to say, two vowels in a row both get a beat, even
                            if they're the samje vowel. So my "ancestral" village, Shingu, in
                            Wakayama Prefecture, is "shi-n-gu", Ieyasu is "I-e-ya-s(u)". The
                            respectful form of 'desu', which is written 'deshoo' or 'deshou', has
                            three syllables, so de-sho-o ka?

                            Oh, one more thing to mention: any of the places you see a syllable
                            with a consonant and a 'y' is generally a single syllable. My secular
                            name is "Yukio", three syllables -- "Yukyo" would be two syllables.

                            - Mugyo (two syllables)
                          • chasrmartin
                            By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for Japanese word of the day , which includes audio
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                              By the way, if you set up a customized Google home page
                              (http://www.google.com/ig) there is a widget for "Japanese word of the
                              day", which includes audio pronunciaqtion.

                              - Mugyo
                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... No it shouldn t. There is an ideogram break between katsu and yuki . Further, the tsu, would only disappear into
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                                Noble Cousins!

                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                > "Katsuyuki" ... should sound something like
                                > "KATS-u-KEE" like how Kansuke sounds like "KON-s-KAY".

                                No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                                Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                                doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                                myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                                (and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                                a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

                                Incidentally, Japanese vowels are pure vowels and are pronounced as
                                in Italian or similar languages. Consequently,

                                KA sounds like what a crow says
                                KI sounds like key
                                KU sounds like what a pigeon says
                                KE sounds like the beginning of kept
                                KO sounds like the beginning of core

                                I am having trouble thinking of an English word that has TSU in it, but
                                TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                                ooh.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                ... No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing KATSU is one kanji and YUKI is
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                                  On 3/8/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                                  > <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                                  > > Well... it is easier if you read kanji, but USUALLY these names are
                                  > > two characters, each two morae each (one mora is usually a syllable...
                                  > > but not necessarily).
                                  >
                                  > Um, do you mean "read kana"? Kanji often have multiple readings; for
                                  > example the first character in my secular name can be either "yuki" or
                                  > "sachi", and happen that both readings are two syllables.

                                  No, I mean kanji. The problem was where the break comes--you know
                                  that by which kanji you are reading. Thus knowing 'KATSU' is one
                                  kanji and 'YUKI' is another kanji, you have an idea on how to break it
                                  up.

                                  Another example might be something like 'I NO U E', or 'O O O TA'.
                                  Where do break them apart? Is it 'INOU E' or 'INO UE'? 'O OOTA'? 'O
                                  O OTA'? 'O OO TA'?

                                  How about:
                                  TO U JO U
                                  SO U MA
                                  A O NO
                                  U RA I SA I
                                  A SA I SHI
                                  I TO U TSU
                                  KA JI U U JI
                                  KO UCHI

                                  Those are just some that I could find readily--knowing the kanji helps
                                  tell you how to parse them, and helps you figure out how to pronounce
                                  them. Yeah, the kana help (especially when you have 'n' and need to
                                  know if it is 'N' or part of 'NA/NI/NU/NE/NO'), but that only gets you
                                  so far, imho. Yeah, once you get into the swing of it, you can
                                  usually guess what the parsing is when looking at the Romaji--and some
                                  are pretty obvious--but ultimately I find the kanji help more than
                                  just about anything else.

                                  > This is right on the track -- and it's easier if you figure out the
                                  > word in kana, and then follow the rule that every individual kana (one
                                  > syllable) gets equal weight and strength.

                                  Sort of... while 'syllable' is the concept we (English speakers) tend
                                  to most easily grasp, you are really looking at individual 'morae'.

                                  Mora: the unit of time equivalent to the ordinary or normal short
                                  sound or syllable. (from http://dictionary.com)

                                  Syllable:
                                  1. A unit of spoken language consisting of a single uninterrupted
                                  sound formed by a vowel, diphthong, or syllabic consonant alone, or by
                                  any of these sounds preceded, followed, or surrounded by one or more
                                  consonants.
                                  2. One or more letters or phonetic symbols written or printed to
                                  approximate a spoken syllable.
                                  (from http://dictionary.com)

                                  So, let's look at a word with a diphthong: 'SAIWAI'. It technically
                                  has two syllables: 'SAI' and 'WAI'. (like 'sigh' and 'why') but it
                                  takes 4 morae to say: SA I WA I.

                                  Likewise the difference between TORI, TORII, and TOORI. Technically
                                  they are all 2 syllables. However, TO RI is only two morae, while TO
                                  RI I and TO O RI are both three morae. Okay, so the difference may be
                                  pedantic for some, but linguistically there is a slight difference
                                  that helps you pull off a better pronunciation, imho. It also helps
                                  you remember not to be overly staccato when speaking, and emphasizes
                                  the fun fact that Japanese actually has true /long/ vowels (e.g. 'O
                                  O'), as opposed to English 'long vowels' which are more often
                                  diphthongs.

                                  -Ii
                                • Michael Peters
                                  I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 8, 2007
                                    I think there is a bit of confusion (as usual on the internet). From a
                                    technical aspect I have to back Solveig 100% on this. Is the problem modern
                                    interpretations of colloquial Japanese? Example a-na-ta is commonly
                                    pronouced aNta in Osaka and "-un" instead of "-ka" for questions. Also it
                                    could be *your* hearing? Our ears work in strange ways. For example often in
                                    Japanese -ga shifts to -nga. Extremely difficult to hear *unless* you've
                                    lived a long time where the language HAS ng as a sound. Most westerner's
                                    brains "hear" -ga even when it is actually -nga.
                                    As with anything of this nature we simply can't know the *period*
                                    inflections, contractions etc.. For *our* usage however *classical* correct
                                    pronunciation would probably be the best.


                                    >Greetings from Solveig!
                                    >
                                    >No it shouldn't. There is an ideogram break between "katsu" and "yuki".
                                    >Further, the tsu, would only disappear into a glottal stop which y just
                                    >doesn't do. Consequently, it is Katsu'yuki. Further, and I am repeating
                                    >myself, there is NO STRESS ACCENT in Japanese. There probably
                                    >(and I would have to check this in a dictionary after I get back from
                                    >a conference I am at) a rising pitch from KA to TSU.

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                                  • chasrmartin
                                    ... wrote: but ... Tsoup.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                      wrote:

                                      but
                                      > TS sounds pretty much like you think it does. But, the U sounds like
                                      > ooh.

                                      Tsoup.
                                    • chasrmartin
                                      Folks, I m as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I ve learned a wonderful new word ( morae ), but this is a beginner; let s not give the impression that
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                        Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                        wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                        the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                        pronounce Japanese adequately.

                                        One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                                        Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                                        single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                                        pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                                        and second "p".

                                        - Mugyo
                                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                        ... Good point. Sorry, I didn t mean to imply that one needed to know all that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way to better
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                          On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                          > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                          > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                          > pronounce Japanese adequately.

                                          Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                                          that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                                          to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                                          was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                                          Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.

                                          -Ii
                                        • lawrence warnock
                                          I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes to far, I just delete the email ;p Miguru ...
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                            I never took it that way, I was just enjoying the education. If someone goes
                                            to far, I just delete the email ;p

                                            Miguru

                                            >From: "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)" <tatsushu@...>
                                            >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                            >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                            >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Going Sanada
                                            >Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:45:19 -0500
                                            >
                                            >On 3/9/07, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Folks, I'm as much of a geek as anyone, and sure enough I've learned a
                                            > > wonderful new word ("morae"), but this is a beginner; let's not give
                                            > > the impression that it requires a degree in linguistics to learn to
                                            > > pronounce Japanese adequately.
                                            >
                                            >Good point. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that one needed to know all
                                            >that stuff to learn to pronounce things--I just find it a helpful way
                                            >to better understand it. My apologies to anyone who thought that I
                                            >was implying that you must know all of this stuff to pronounce
                                            >Japanese, or portray a Japanese persona.
                                            >
                                            >-Ii

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                                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There should be tension and stopped air involved. Your
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Mar 9, 2007
                                              Noble Cousin!

                                              Greetings from Solveig!

                                              > One other thing I didn't mention, by the way --- doubled consonants.
                                              > Watch out for words like "seppuku". There's a distinction between a
                                              > single and double consonant -- "se pu ku" sounds differently than "sep
                                              > pu ku". To my ear, it sounds like a tiny hesitation between the first
                                              > and second "p".

                                              Technically, it is a stop consonant. It is not just a pause. There
                                              should
                                              be tension and stopped air involved.

                                              Your Humble Servant
                                              Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Amateur Scholar





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