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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Back to the original Umeboshi recipe

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I had not checked to see how antique shochu actually is. ... That makes it sound like it was part of the Portugese
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 4, 2007
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!
      > Things have moved about a bit; is 1559CE in period? sake-world has:
      I had not checked to see how antique shochu actually is.
      > "While shochu has its roots in either China or Korea, probably having
      > come across during trading, the traditional home of shochu in Japan is
      > Kagoshima, on the island of Kyushu. In fact, the first usage of the
      > term shochu appeared in graffiti written by a carpenter dated 1559 in
      > a shrine in the city of Oguchi in Kagoshima."
      That makes it sound like it was part of the Portugese China trade. If
      1559 is
      close to the date of introduction, then you have only about 40 years
      for its
      use to extend beyond novelty drink status to industrial ingredient
      status. I
      have a book on order which should show up on Monday which may shed
      some light on this.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
    • chasrmartin
      ... That wasn t a snark, Solveig. I was serious that I wasn t sure if 1559CE was still considered period --- back in the day, one could get away with 1650CE,
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 5, 2007
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        > > Things have moved about a bit; is 1559CE in period? sake-world has:
        > I had not checked to see how antique shochu actually is.
        > > "While shochu has its roots in either China or Korea, probably having
        > > come across during trading, the traditional home of shochu in Japan is
        > > Kagoshima, on the island of Kyushu. In fact, the first usage of the
        > > term shochu appeared in graffiti written by a carpenter dated 1559 in
        > > a shrine in the city of Oguchi in Kagoshima."
        > That makes it sound like it was part of the Portugese China trade. If
        > 1559 is
        > close to the date of introduction, then you have only about 40 years
        > for its
        > use to extend beyond novelty drink status to industrial ingredient
        > status. I
        > have a book on order which should show up on Monday which may shed
        > some light on this.
        >

        That wasn't a snark, Solveig. I was serious that I wasn't sure if
        1559CE was still considered period --- back in the day, one could get
        away with 1650CE, but from other things I've read I infer that's no
        longer true.

        Plus, the distinction between shochu and araki is pretty subtle, and
        araki was known well before that.
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... After failing to find araki with the meaning of some sort of booze in several kogojiten and one historical
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 5, 2007
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          Noble Cousins!

          Greetings from Solveig!
          > That wasn't a snark, Solveig. I was serious that I wasn't sure if
          > 1559CE was still considered period --- back in the day, one could get
          > away with 1650CE, but from other things I've read I infer that's no
          > longer true.
          >
          > Plus, the distinction between shochu and araki is pretty subtle, and
          > araki was known well before that.
          After failing to find "araki" with the meaning of some sort of booze
          in several
          kogojiten and one historical culinary dictionary, I checked my old
          stand-by,
          Daijirin. Daijirin 1st edition says on page 76 that "araki" (written
          in katakana)
          was introduced by the Dutch [Ducth Arak] during the Edo period. The
          entry
          has a basic description of how "araki" is manufactured if anyone is
          curious.
          However, as it was introduced by the Dutch, it is post-period.
          Incidentally,
          the distinction between "araki" an "shochu" is hardly subtle. They
          are made
          from different things.

          Still waiting for my books which were last seen in Erie, PA. Alas,
          the thruway
          was closed over the weekend, so who knows what condition they are in
          now.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • chasrmartin
          ... Google is your friend, Solveig: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dch%C5%AB#History
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 6, 2007
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Noble Cousins!
            >
            > Greetings from Solveig!
            > > That wasn't a snark, Solveig. I was serious that I wasn't sure if
            > > 1559CE was still considered period --- back in the day, one could get
            > > away with 1650CE, but from other things I've read I infer that's no
            > > longer true.
            > >
            > > Plus, the distinction between shochu and araki is pretty subtle, and
            > > araki was known well before that.
            > After failing to find "araki" with the meaning of some sort of booze
            > in several
            > kogojiten and one historical culinary dictionary, I checked my old
            > stand-by,
            > Daijirin.

            Google is your friend, Solveig:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dch%C5%AB#History
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Wikipedia is a poor friend. Its articles are anonymous. So, are you telling me that you trust information whispered to
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 6, 2007
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! Wikipedia is a poor friend. Its articles are
              anonymous. So, are you telling me that you trust information
              whispered to you in public toilets more than you trust scholarly
              books and articles?

              The Shochu article which you found says that Francis Xavier wrote
              that the Japanese drunk "araki" (his word -
              not the Japanese) made from rice. This could be almost anything
              including possibly sake that isn't even
              distilled.

              As shochu shows up sometime around this time, what's your point? And,
              what does this have to do with the umeboshi
              recipe from the Niigata equivalent of the grange?

              Good Grief! The "citations" on that Wikipedia entry are to various
              advertisements.

              In short, while I do find stuff on the internet which I believe is
              reliable (e.g., the Virginia Text Initiative, the multilingual plant
              dictionary in Australia, a web page maintained by a mycologist
              employed by a biology department), I do not trust stuff randomly
              found by google, and I do not use any Wikipedia entry as more than a
              jumping off point for more research or to refresh my memory about
              stuff I already know.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • chasrmartin
              ... Not *so* bad, since I found a reference to araki in 30 seconds and you couldn t find one at all. I note I wasn t the only one who had no trouble.
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 7, 2007
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...> wrote:
                >
                > Noble Cousin!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig! Wikipedia is a poor friend.

                Not *so* bad, since I found a reference to "araki" in 30 seconds and
                you couldn't find one at all. I note I wasn't the only one who had no
                trouble.
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... But, where is your treasured reference to araki ? The web page you cited only cites mention of something called
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 7, 2007
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > Not *so* bad, since I found a reference to "araki" in 30 seconds and
                  > you couldn't find one at all. I note I wasn't the only one who had no
                  > trouble.

                  But, where is your treasured reference to "araki"? The web page you
                  cited only cites mention of something called "araki" in the writings of
                  Francis Xavier a 16th century Jesuit missionary. I have never contested
                  that "araki" was unknown in Iberia during the 16th century.

                  Where I am having problems finding araki in Japan prior to 1600 is in
                  genuine scholarly sources about Japan.

                  Please understand that there are several online alternatives to
                  Wikipedia
                  in various fields being created by scholars who are very unhappy with
                  the
                  articles being put up there. While a study did find Wikipedia articles
                  somewhat comparable to the Encyclopedia Britannica, this is not at all
                  surprising as it is extremely easy for people who know nothing at all
                  about
                  a subject to plagiarize Britannica.

                  Mundanely, I am a college professor. Students are always trying to
                  stop with Wikipedia and a google search instead of starting there.
                  The result is often a very poor and even flat out inaccurate paper.

                  While lack of evidence does not guarantee non-existence, it does mean
                  that you should not be making strong claims.

                  Incidentally, Kodansha Kogojiten (1969)(p. 926) says that "rambiki" is
                  derived from a Portugese word and actually refers to a distillation
                  device
                  called an alambic. Thus, your Wikipedia article disagrees with published
                  Japanese scholarship.

                  The problem is that Wikipedia articles can be written by anyone at
                  any time.
                  They can be very accurate or contain hog swill. You have very little
                  way of
                  knowing which without looking further.

                  Also, you need to understand that the editorial guidelines for
                  Wikipedia are
                  such that the articles will be poor for subject areas where the best
                  sources
                  are in languages other than English. This is because the Wikipedia
                  editorial
                  guidelines strongly prefer English language sources to sources in other
                  languages. For example, the non-existence of "tessenjutsu" in Japanese
                  sources counts for nothing compared to a fanciful description in
                  "Secrets
                  of the Samurai" a book which is in places on a par with popular books
                  about
                  Sasquatch, Leprechauns, and secret Space Aliens at Roswell, New Mexico.
                  In short, Wikipedia editorial policy gives more credence to articles
                  in grocery
                  store tabloids written in English than to Ph.D. dissertations written
                  in Japanese.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar



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