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Japanese Winter Garb?

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  • Kristin
    Sumimasen (excuse me), The winter months get cold in Kansas and I m sure they got cold in Japan as well. Any idea what they wore or did they just add more
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 18, 2007
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      Sumimasen (excuse me),

      The winter months get cold in Kansas and I'm sure they got cold in
      Japan as well. Any idea what they wore or did they just add more
      layers? I don't really have a set time period yet. All I have is a
      name and device that are being sent up. Arigatou gozaimasu (thank you
      very much) for your help.

      Kiotsukete (take care),

      Nitsuki/Kristin
    • wodeford
      ... Your question is very general, so my answer is going to have to be somewhat general as well. There s a reason they make long underwear out of silk: it s a
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 18, 2007
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Kristin" <ticklequen@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sumimasen (excuse me),
        >
        > The winter months get cold in Kansas and I'm sure they got cold in
        > Japan as well. Any idea what they wore or did they just add more
        > layers? I don't really have a set time period yet. All I have is a
        > name and device that are being sent up. Arigatou gozaimasu (thank you
        > very much) for your help.

        Your question is very general, so my answer is going to have to be
        somewhat general as well. There's a reason they make long underwear
        out of silk: it's a good insulator. I've gone galivanting in the
        Arizona desert in February at night in my silks and it's very warm. A
        good, tight weave silk also functions admirably as a windbreaker. ;->
        More layers were certainly part of the equation, but we also have
        descriptions of lined garments that are padded. For the life of me I
        cannot remember what it's called, but there's a sort of sticky silk
        fiber that was used as the fill on these padded garments. Since it is
        sticky, it would not necessarily have to be quilted.

        (There is a technique called sachiko that appears in peasant garments
        that *can* be used for quilting, but I think it turns up in the Edo
        period and at first primarily as a way of strengthening fabric.)

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • wodeford
        ... Found it! It s called mawata and looks like this: http://www.wormspit.com/mawatas.htm Saionji no Hanae West Kingdom
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 19, 2007
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
          > More layers were certainly part of the equation, but we also have
          > descriptions of lined garments that are padded. For the life of me I
          > cannot remember what it's called, but there's a sort of sticky silk
          > fiber that was used as the fill on these padded garments. Since it is
          > sticky, it would not necessarily have to be quilted.

          Found it! It's called mawata and looks like this:
          http://www.wormspit.com/mawatas.htm

          Saionji no Hanae
          West Kingdom
        • Rick Johnson
          I was just reading about this last night while mourning the recent suicide of an Air Force Buddy with whom Iserved for some 20 years (some in countries where
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 19, 2007
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            I was just reading about this last night while mourning the recent
            suicide of an Air Force Buddy with whom Iserved for some 20 years
            (some in countries where the locals tried to klill us).

            So, to avoid maudlin thoughts, as i recall, the Japanese had no wool
            so had to layer their clothing. But cotten was expensive and the
            materials they could use (Hemp, Flax-like plant and a few kinds of
            tree-bark) had really poor insulation qualities.

            So they had to really layer as best they could and were cold a lot.

            The straw coats were like the walls of Polynesian huts, overlapping
            and staggered layers to cause rain and snow to run off. Strange
            though all the pics I saw showed them as simple cap-lets and never
            full length or covering more than the back and shoulders.


            Rick Johnson, PO Box 40451, Tucson, Az. 85717
            http://www.geocities.com/DesertHenge
            http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_ERB
            http://www.geocities.com/RikJohnson_RLJ


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          • Jason Adams
            From all sources I have seen, winter versions of clothing were exactly the same as summer, except lining. Summer clothing had no lining, while winter cothing
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 19, 2007
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              From all sources I have seen, winter versions of clothing were exactly
              the same as summer, except lining. Summer clothing had no lining,
              while winter cothing did. Climatically speaking, indeed in the
              mountainous regions of Japan, to which there are many, winters must be
              incredibly harsh. On several occassion it can be read of military
              strategy (especially by the Takeda) revolving around whether or not
              passes are frozen over. However, in the valleys and plains, it may
              not be so harsh in winter. Perhapse we should ask an Japanese? :)
              Remember, houses are made of paper to aid in summer conditions, with
              little concern to winter. But again, that is by region.

              Perhaps the japanese did not domestically produce wool, but they were
              at least very fond of Dutch imported wool. Citing: "The Manufacture
              of Armour and Helmets in 16th Century Japan", page 120: (Regarding the
              Suneate) "For the TATE-AGE a projection of woolen cloth or of leather
              is sometimes used. (footnote #3: These woolen cloth TATEAGE are
              always made from European (probably Dutch) faced cloth or serge,
              except on cheap makes which are of hemp cloth. The fabric covers
              convex hexagonal iron or leather plates which are outlined in a
              contrasting silk thread - H.R.R.) There is ancient authority for this
              subsitution, so that it is not amiss on nobelman's armour."

              The author, having written this in the 1700's, referrs to the Heian
              period as the "Ancient period" and the Edo period as "Modern" period,
              because to him it was! Which is confusing to the reader, as the
              Tosei-do is what is commonly referred to today as "Modern Armour".
              So to make things read a little more easily, what he is saying is that
              any Samurai worth thier sword in the Sengoku period, would have the
              cloth brigandine knee cops of his shin-gaurds constructed with wool.

              Also, to say "There is ancient authority" may mean this practice has
              been enforced since the Heian period??? Can someone cite if European
              traders were common in the Heian period? If not, where did they get
              their wool? If not from Europe, than from Asiatic import of China,
              perhaps Korea or others? Wool, comming from more than sheep, must not
              be exclusive to Europe!

              The note that "cheap armour" did not use wool on the TATEAGE, would
              beg that most extent examples of originals will be made as such. The
              author also notes that other cloth brigandine areas like this were
              made of the same fashion.

              So this starts the inquiry into "If they used wool so much on such
              pieces of armour, was it used in civilian dress?" Perhapse the
              costume museum:
              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/
              would have more pertinant information.

              Kindest regards,
              -Jason
            • wodeford
              ... Not at first they weren t. Giles Milton s Samurai William makes mention of the first English trade missions trying - and failing miserably - to convince
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 19, 2007
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                > Perhaps the japanese did not domestically produce wool, but they were
                > at least very fond of Dutch imported wool.
                Not at first they weren't. Giles Milton's "Samurai William" makes
                mention of the first English trade missions trying - and failing
                miserably - to convince the Japanese that their holds crammed with
                nasty, itchy wool was just what the Japanese had been missing all
                their lives! Argh- my apologies, I cannot seem to locate my copy at
                the moment.)

                I'm pretty sure that the Dutch don't even ARRIVE in Japan until 1600
                or after. The Portuguese arrived in the 1540s and much of their trade
                consists of bringing Chinese goods - not European ones - into Japan.
                The Japanese wanted Chinese silk and other products. The Portuguese
                made their fortunes by acquiring it and selling at a profit.

                This would all certainly be consistent with the fact that none of the
                references in my small library of textile and costuming resources
                mention the use of wool in Japan for clothing prior to the Edo period.

                > Also, to say "There is ancient authority" may mean this practice has
                > been enforced since the Heian period??? Can someone cite if European
                > traders were common in the Heian period?
                Sure they were - in Europe. The first known mention of the existence
                of Japan in any surviving European record is a reference to "Cipango"
                in "The Travels of Marco Polo."

                > If not, where did they get their wool?
                They didn't.

                Saionji no Hanae
                West Kingdom
              • Diane Taylor
                As I am retiring from Heavy Weapons and returning to Target Archery, I was wondering what sort of dress armor I could make for wars and such to add that bit of
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 19, 2007
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                  As I am retiring from Heavy Weapons and returning to Target Archery, I was wondering what sort of dress armor I could make for wars and such to add that bit of spiff to my persona? Pictures would be lovely so I could have an idea of what would work. Though I'm not going to be doing much this year due to the move over to the Barony of Thor's Mountain in less than a month and a half.

                  Anything would be welcome at this point.

                  Thank you in advance.

                  Lady Qara Unegen


                  ---------------------------------
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                • wodeford
                  ... I was wondering what sort of dress armor I could make for wars and such to add that bit of spiff to my persona? Start here:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 19, 2007
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Diane Taylor <qara0@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > As I am retiring from Heavy Weapons and returning to Target Archery,
                    I was wondering what sort of dress armor I could make for wars and
                    such to add that bit of spiff to my persona?

                    Start here: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/index.html
                    It's only THE overview of pre 1600 Japanese armor (and adapting it for
                    SCA use).

                    Saionji no Hanae
                    West Kingdom
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I suspect that you are confused or misinformed about a number of things. ... Not precisely correct. In one sense modern
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 19, 2007
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig! I suspect that you are confused or
                      misinformed about a number of things.

                      > From all sources I have seen, winter versions of clothing were exactly
                      > the same as summer, except lining. Summer clothing had no lining,
                      > while winter cothing did.

                      Not precisely correct. In one sense modern Summer clothing is exactly
                      the same as modern Winter clothing. However, Japanese Winter clothing
                      included straw rain/snow capes, straw snow boots, &c. Also, there
                      were Summer colours as opposed to Winter colours. As already pointed
                      out there was the possibility not only of lining garments, but
                      padding them as well.

                      > Remember, houses are made of paper to aid in summer conditions, with
                      > little concern to winter. But again, that is by region.

                      Alas, there is only one way to say this. Totally false. The Japanese
                      do not and never have lived in paper houses. The confusion arises
                      from sliding room dividers, shoji, &c. But, none of these are
                      principal external walls. Further, traditional Japanese homes can be
                      buttoned up so they provide an exterior consisting solely of wood ,
                      stucco,. thatch, roof-tiles, &c.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar
                    • wodeford
                      ... Yeah, they re both modern! Solveig-hime, did you just make a joke or was that a fortuitous accident? Saionji no Hanae, the far too easily amused West
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 19, 2007
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                        wrote:
                        > Not precisely correct. In one sense modern Summer clothing is exactly
                        > the same as modern Winter clothing.

                        Yeah, they're both modern!

                        Solveig-hime, did you just make a joke or was that a fortuitous accident?

                        Saionji no Hanae, the far too easily amused
                        West Kingdom
                      • Jennifer Kobayashi
                        ... If you are looking for spiff martial outfits that clearly involve archery, may I suggest the following from the Costume Museum:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 20, 2007
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                          --- Diane Taylor <qara0@...> wrote:

                          > As I am retiring from Heavy Weapons and returning to
                          > Target Archery, I was wondering what sort of dress
                          > armor I could make for wars and such to add that bit
                          > of spiff to my persona? Pictures would be lovely so
                          > I could have an idea of what would work. Though I'm
                          > not going to be doing much this year due to the move
                          > over to the Barony of Thor's Mountain in less than a
                          > month and a half.
                          >
                          > Anything would be welcome at this point.

                          If you are looking for spiff martial outfits that
                          clearly involve archery, may I suggest the following
                          from the Costume Museum:

                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/wayou/11.htm
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/11.htm
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000028

                          outfits covered in more detail at the following
                          indespensible site:

                          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.html

                          Ki no Izumi/Jennifer



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                        • Jason Adams
                          Ah, thank you both for refining the topic; I am glad that thoughts are stimulated and truths uncovered. It is a great honor to discus these things with you
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 20, 2007
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                            Ah, thank you both for refining the topic; I am glad that thoughts are
                            stimulated and truths uncovered. It is a great honor to discus these
                            things with you all, to which I admit I am merely novice.

                            Saionji, not arguing the point, but rather adding to it in the effort
                            to reinforce your statement: "Samurai William", prologue, page 08,
                            last sentence: "So it was that, in 1544, three Portuguese adventurers
                            stepped ashore in the ancient fiefdom of Bungo." This, after being
                            marooned there. That's not to be smarty-pants, but rather so you
                            don't have to dig the book out, as you said it wasn't readily
                            available. I only wish to help :)

                            Now, I can swim, but you'll never get me on a boat like that, trying
                            to chart unknown waters! Not like back then. Kudos to those
                            adventurers of days past!!

                            Solveig, I like the straw raincoats and boots to which you speak. I'm
                            importing some rice straw from California and I'm timidly considering
                            sacrificing a nine-foot bamboo pole here at the house for exploring
                            waraji and gasa. I like these hands-on crafts :) If I get well
                            enough, the rain gear you mention will be a delight for me to attempt!

                            I admit, my only real interest at this point is armour and all the
                            books I have been pouring over the last year have been to that point.
                            So garb is not field of study of mine at this moment; well, beyond
                            shitagi anyway.

                            I hoped I did not provoke any ill feelings by adding to the
                            discussion. I hope only to stimulate the conversation, to cover any
                            more ground that might be explored.

                            If I may, can I add one more option to explore concerning the wool?
                            Tea entered China from India and then Japan from China. Concerning
                            this network, might wool have been imported from the continent in such
                            a manner? Did China produce any woolens? I simply don't know, so I'm
                            just asking. If it is plain fact there were no wools in Japan until
                            1600's, I apologize; I am just not aware either way and wish to know
                            for my own education.

                            Perhaps wool is unnecessary when thinking upon silk's nature of not
                            breathing well. But then did many commoners ware a great deal of
                            silk, or was it all hemp? I've seen an early jinboari of the Edo
                            period, made of hemp and seemed to me of canvass weight, a very thick
                            weave. Is such heavy weight hemp rather comparative to Cottons?

                            My kindest regards and great thanks for the privilege to study among
                            you. If I may, I must lament a sorrow. I once lived in Pittsburgh,
                            for 8 years. It is so very close to Pennsic, yet I never had the
                            opportunity to attend and thus missed the chance of being able to
                            greet such fine individuals as yourselves and be able to sit about the
                            fire and truly learn these great things! So I am greatly appreciative
                            to be able to do this via this electronic medium.

                            -Jason Adams
                          • wodeford
                            ... Sounds about right. William is surely in a pile somewhere around here. Now, which pile? (It seemed a good little book on the period, with lots of detail
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 20, 2007
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                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                              > This, after being
                              > marooned there. That's not to be smarty-pants, but rather so you
                              > don't have to dig the book out, as you said it wasn't readily
                              > available.

                              Sounds about right. "William" is surely in a pile somewhere around
                              here. Now, which pile? (It seemed a good little book on the period,
                              with lots of detail on European trade in the Far East as I recall.)

                              > I admit, my only real interest at this point is armour and all the
                              > books I have been pouring over the last year have been to that
                              > point. So garb is not field of study of mine at this moment; well,
                              > beyond shitagi anyway.
                              As I recall once pointing out to someone, eventually you'll have to
                              take the armor OFF. And chicks dig guys who dress well. ;->

                              > I hoped I did not provoke any ill feelings by adding to the
                              > discussion.
                              No, but you sounded a bit mixed up. Or maybe your source was mixed up.
                              Japan was officially "closed" to most Europeans: you have a European
                              writer describing Japan circa 1700. You have to take into account the
                              fact that he may be using information which is limited or hearsay or
                              just plain out there.

                              > If I may, can I add one more option to explore concerning the wool?
                              > Tea entered China from India and then Japan from China. Concerning
                              > this network, might wool have been imported from the continent in
                              > such a manner?
                              A reasonable question. I know people who knit the hair their cats
                              shed, so in theory, one can make textiles from most sorts of animal
                              hair fiber.

                              Fact: The Japanese agricultural base of our period was heavily
                              invested in rice production, which requires a lot of acreage. This
                              doesn't leave a margin for raising herd animals - beef or dairy
                              cattle, sheep, whatever. So the Japanese just plain didn't produce
                              their own wool.

                              Fact: Trade with mainland Asia was not a steady-state thing by any
                              stretch of the imagination. After an influx of highly admirable and
                              desirable goods and ideas into Japan from China and Korea (writing,
                              Buddhism, tea, silk and so forth) in the 600s, Japan slams the door
                              diplomatically speaking for several centuries. Some Chinese goods make
                              their way into the country by fortuitously accidental shipwrecks, but
                              not much. (A lot of Japanese textile production and decoration
                              developments are done to imitate highly desirable Chinese products
                              that are too rare and costly to get.) In the late 1200's the Great
                              Khan says, "Hi, remember us? I want tribute." Japan manages to avoid
                              invasion by the Mongols, but it's a near thing. In this day and age we
                              are used to ready access to imported trade goods from most parts of
                              the world. It helps to remember that Japan is a collection of islands
                              and was able to geographically isolate itself for certain periods of
                              time if its government so desired.

                              > Did China produce any woolens?
                              I honestly don't know as I haven't focused on Chinese stuff for our
                              period. So I went looking. Various internet sites indicate that
                              prehistoric wool production appears in what we now think of as the
                              Middle East, then spread westward and north into Europe. A separate
                              wool evolutionary path appears to originate in preColumbian America,
                              with prehistoric textile remnants found in Peru.

                              Today China is responsible for something like 18% of the world's wool
                              production. However, it looks like it's the result of the modern
                              importation of both raw wool and merino sheep from Australia.
                              http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Mar/28273.htm
                              Here I begin speculating madly: The Silk Road runs both ways. It's
                              *possible* there could have been domestic wool production going on in
                              pockets around eastern Asia, but was it enough to bother exporting?
                              Again, I don't know.

                              All I can tell you is that the Japanese don't appear to have access to
                              wool until after significant contact with European traders. I have in
                              fact remembered at least one example of an extant 16th century wool
                              garment from Japan, a jinbaori in the Tokyo National
                              Museum.http://www.tnm.go.jp/gallery/search/images/300/C0037185.jpg
                              Very pretty, but still more of an exception than the rule for the
                              Momoyama period. You start to see more of them in the Edo period. The
                              Asian Art Museum in San Francisco has one.

                              Wool seems to make a really big impact during the Meiji period. As
                              Japan embraces modernization and Western style clothing, wool becomes
                              more fashionable. While much of it is going into suits and trousers
                              for salarymen or uniforms for the Imperial Army, local tailors are
                              also starting to use it for kimono. It should be noted, however, that
                              to this day a wool kimono is considered informal. Silk is still king.

                              > But then did many commoners ware a great deal of
                              > silk, or was it all hemp?
                              Reach into your drawer and compare a t-shirt, a sweat sock, a sweat
                              shirt, a dress shirt, a bath towel and a pair of jeans. They're all
                              cotton, right? But they're all different. You can weave a *great*
                              variety of weights and weaves with a fiber.

                              Silk can be very fine or very heavy or very coarse and slubby. The
                              same with hemp. (The same with wool and cotton and linen, for that
                              matter.)I've seen a Japanese hemp kataginu you can read a newspaper
                              through.

                              What happens to the third-rate output of a lowly weaving apprentice
                              who hasn't mastered the craft yet? Somebody ends up using it, right?
                              Japanese chronicles and diaries also frequently mention the
                              presentation of garments or bolts of silk as gifts from a superior to
                              an inferior. The passing on of garments as gifts, death bequests or
                              hand-me-downs is one of the reasons there are a lot of surviving
                              garments from the 16th century. If Big Giant Head Daimyo takes off his
                              dofuku and presents it to Noh Actor Of Talent after being moved by a
                              performance, Noh Actor Of Talent is going to take very good care of it
                              and pass it on to his students when he dies.

                              The construction of Japanese clothing, namely, long strips of narrow
                              bolt widths with minimal cutting, means it's easy to take them apart
                              for cleaning. It also means it's easy to take them apart and resize
                              them for a new wearer. It also means that if you had a catastrophic
                              spill on one kosode and your brother stood too close to the fire in
                              another kosode that your mother would probably take them both apart,
                              discard the damaged bit and make one new kosode out of the bits that
                              were still useable. The scraps might go for wrapping cloths or towels
                              or even new hanao (thongs) for your zori. Pieced garments probably
                              started as an economic necessity, but they became very fashionable in
                              the 16th century. I have some examples on my webpage at
                              http://www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm

                              This textile geekery brain dump went on longer than I expected. It
                              must be the Dayquil shooters....

                              Saionji no Hanae
                              West Kingdom
                            • wodeford
                              ... Here s a mino, third item down: http://www.shibuihome.com/page147.html Bokunando carries a reproduction mino as well as other re-enactment suitable hats
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 21, 2007
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                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Johnson" <rikjohnson@...> wrote:
                                > The straw coats were like the walls of Polynesian huts, overlapping
                                > and staggered layers to cause rain and snow to run off. Strange
                                > though all the pics I saw showed them as simple cap-lets and never
                                > full length or covering more than the back and shoulders.

                                Here's a mino, third item down:
                                http://www.shibuihome.com/page147.html

                                Bokunando carries a reproduction mino as well as other re-enactment
                                suitable hats and accessories:
                                http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm

                                Saionji no Hanae
                                West
                              • Leonard, Elizabeth A. @ Sacramento
                                Lady Qara-san, I wear garb fashioned after the archer Warrior in kari-shozoku image at this link: http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm I am
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 22, 2007
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                                  Lady Qara-san,


                                  I wear garb fashioned after the archer "Warrior in kari-shozoku" image
                                  at this link:


                                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm


                                  I am a fencer, so the underarms of the jacket can't be open. To solve
                                  this problem, I created the arms as square sleeves with a generous
                                  gusset underneath. For convenience, I have made the front of the jacket
                                  close with 2" velcro. One could use tie-closures but I like being able
                                  to armor up/down with gloves on if necessary.


                                  - lady Yukiko Hosokawa


                                  Samurai Archers?
                                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/message/22013;_ylc=X3oDMTJycHNoNz
                                  hxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwODU1NzkEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzY3NTAzBG1zZ0lkAz
                                  IyMDEzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNjkzMTI5NjE->


                                  Posted by: "Diane Taylor" qara0@...
                                  <mailto:qara0@...?Subject= Re%3ASamurai%20Archers%3F> qara0
                                  <http://profiles.yahoo.com/qara0>


                                  Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:50 pm (PST)


                                  "As I am retiring from Heavy Weapons and returning to Target Archery, I
                                  was wondering what sort of dress armor I could make for wars and such to
                                  add that bit of spiff to my persona? Pictures would be lovely so I could
                                  have an idea of what would work. Though I'm not going to be doing much
                                  this year due to the move over to the Barony of Thor's Mountain in less
                                  than a month and a half."






                                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm


                                  Elizabeth Leonard | Graphic Designer
                                  CB Richard Ellis | Marketing Services
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                                • Jason Adams
                                  Here yo ugo Nitsuki, scroll down only a little and on the right is snow hood :) http://www.kyotokimono.com/WhatsForSale/UnusualItems4Sale.html -Jason
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                    Here yo ugo Nitsuki, scroll down only a little and on the right is
                                    snow hood :)

                                    http://www.kyotokimono.com/WhatsForSale/UnusualItems4Sale.html

                                    -Jason

                                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Kristin" <ticklequen@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Sumimasen (excuse me),
                                    >
                                    > The winter months get cold in Kansas and I'm sure they got cold in
                                    > Japan as well. Any idea what they wore or did they just add more
                                    > layers? I don't really have a set time period yet. All I have is a
                                    > name and device that are being sent up. Arigatou gozaimasu (thank you
                                    > very much) for your help.
                                    >
                                    > Kiotsukete (take care),
                                    >
                                    > Nitsuki/Kristin
                                    >
                                  • wodeford
                                    ... OK, Jason-dono. Your mission, should you decide to accept it is to find proof something like that was worn prior to 1600. ;- Just because it s vintage
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Here yo ugo Nitsuki, scroll down only a little and on the right is
                                      > snow hood :)
                                      >
                                      > http://www.kyotokimono.com/WhatsForSale/UnusualItems4Sale.html

                                      OK, Jason-dono. Your mission, should you decide to accept it is to
                                      find proof something like that was worn prior to 1600. ;->

                                      Just because it's "vintage" doesn't mean it's period.

                                      Saionji no Hanae
                                      West Kingdom
                                    • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                                      ... If you attach a number of bags of cloves to your body, you will not be affected by inclemency or colds. Some years ago Nakano Kazuma returned to this
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                        > Sumimasen (excuse me),
                                        >
                                        > The winter months get cold in Kansas and I'm sure they got cold in
                                        > Japan as well. Any idea what they wore or did they just add more
                                        > layers?


                                        "If you attach a number of bags of cloves to your body, you will not
                                        be affected by inclemency or colds. Some years ago Nakano Kazuma
                                        returned to this province as a messenger by horse in the dead of
                                        winter, and though he was an old man, he was not the least bit in
                                        pain. It is said that that was because of his having used cloves.
                                        Furthermore, drinking a decoction of the feces from a dappled horse is
                                        the way to stop bleeding from an injury received by falling off a horse."
                                        -Hagakure
                                      • wodeford
                                        ... horse. Otagiri-dono, Brings a whole new meaning to Here, taste this, it s TERRIBLE! Do you have an edition and page number? I should LOVE to send this
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Otagiri Tatsuzou" <ronbroberg@...> wrote:

                                          > "If you attach a number of bags of cloves to your body, you will not
                                          > be affected by inclemency or colds. Some years ago Nakano Kazuma
                                          > returned to this province as a messenger by horse in the dead of
                                          > winter, and though he was an old man, he was not the least bit in
                                          > pain. It is said that that was because of his having used cloves.
                                          > Furthermore, drinking a decoction of the feces from a dappled horse is
                                          > the way to stop bleeding from an injury received by falling off a
                                          horse."

                                          Otagiri-dono,

                                          Brings a whole new meaning to "Here, taste this, it's TERRIBLE!"

                                          Do you have an edition and page number? I should LOVE to send this one
                                          to a friend of mine who has been studying Period Things To Do With Poo
                                          (and for that matter, Pee).

                                          Saionji
                                        • Jason Adams
                                          Ha, no thanks Cap! Actually, it has some very close-up photos of the padding matterial. THATs why I sent the link :) Its winter-based, its lined and padded,
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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                                            Ha, no thanks Cap! Actually, it has some very close-up photos of the
                                            padding matterial. THATs why I sent the link :) Its winter-based,
                                            its lined and padded, I thought it would help with construction notes.
                                            eh, take what you can from it, leave the rest. Just like philosophy :)

                                            -Jason

                                            >
                                            > OK, Jason-dono. Your mission, should you decide to accept it is to
                                            > find proof something like that was worn prior to 1600. ;->
                                            >
                                            > Just because it's "vintage" doesn't mean it's period.
                                            >
                                            > Saionji no Hanae
                                            > West Kingdom
                                            >
                                          • Jason Adams
                                            Well, if we re gonna go THERE.... lol You can, of coarse put peppers all over your body too. thats in the Samurai Sourcebook along with some interesting
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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                                              Well, if we're gonna go THERE.... lol

                                              You can, of coarse put peppers all over your body too. thats in the
                                              "Samurai Sourcebook" along with some interesting "folk" medicines and
                                              emergency rations. lol I love how the last line reguards NOT to put
                                              it in your eyes!!!! LMAO! Im waiting for Ben Stine to pop up "For
                                              dry, burning eyes, use clear eyes..."

                                              -Jason

                                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Otagiri Tatsuzou" <ronbroberg@...>

                                              > "If you attach a number of bags of cloves to your body, you will not
                                              > be affected by inclemency or colds. Some years ago Nakano Kazuma
                                              > returned to this province as a messenger by horse in the dead of
                                              > winter, and though he was an old man, he was not the least bit in
                                              > pain. It is said that that was because of his having used cloves.
                                              > Furthermore, drinking a decoction of the feces from a dappled horse is
                                              > the way to stop bleeding from an injury received by falling off a
                                              horse."
                                              > -Hagakure
                                              >
                                            • wodeford
                                              ... My point is that you can t take ANYTHING from it if you can t prove it exists in the period you are trying to represent. To do so you have to find (A)
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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                                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Ha, no thanks Cap! Actually, it has some very close-up photos of the
                                                > padding matterial. THATs why I sent the link :) Its winter-based,
                                                > its lined and padded, I thought it would help with construction notes.
                                                > eh, take what you can from it, leave the rest.

                                                My point is that you can't take ANYTHING from it if you can't prove it
                                                exists in the period you are trying to represent. To do so you have to
                                                find (A) surviving examples from the period or (B) written
                                                descriptions from the period of someone wearing one or (C) paintings
                                                and drawings from the period showing someone wearing them.

                                                Enthusiasm is admirable and I applaud yours. Now if we can just focus
                                                that enthusiasm in the right direction.....
                                                (OMG, that stupid LJ meme was right. I AM Yoda.)

                                                Saionji no Hanae
                                              • Jason Adams
                                                Indeed, I agree with you wholeheartedly! I didnt mean to sound pissy over the post or anything, just trying to be helpful :) But seriously though, does the
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Feb 4, 2007
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                                                  Indeed, I agree with you wholeheartedly! I didnt mean to sound pissy
                                                  over the post or anything, just trying to be helpful :) But seriously
                                                  though, does the close ups of the material and padding work?

                                                  Now, if you can wear long green ears and fight while on your knees,
                                                  hopping around like a crazy little carnie, I will call you Jedi Master :)

                                                  -Jason

                                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:

                                                  > My point is that you can't take ANYTHING from it if you can't prove it
                                                  > exists in the period you are trying to represent. To do so you have to
                                                  > find (A) surviving examples from the period or (B) written
                                                  > descriptions from the period of someone wearing one or (C) paintings
                                                  > and drawings from the period showing someone wearing them.
                                                  >
                                                  > Enthusiasm is admirable and I applaud yours. Now if we can just focus
                                                  > that enthusiasm in the right direction.....
                                                  > (OMG, that stupid LJ meme was right. I AM Yoda.)
                                                  >
                                                  > Saionji no Hanae
                                                  >
                                                • wodeford
                                                  ... Master :) Well, our eyes are sort of the same pond-scum-shining-in-the-morning-sun color, but I m much taller and prettier (even on a bad day). And I m
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Feb 4, 2007
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                                                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Adams" <banditt_adams@...> wrote:
                                                    > Now, if you can wear long green ears and fight while on your knees,
                                                    > hopping around like a crazy little carnie, I will call you Jedi
                                                    Master :)

                                                    Well, our eyes are sort of the same
                                                    pond-scum-shining-in-the-morning-sun color, but I'm much taller and
                                                    prettier (even on a bad day). And I'm pretty good with The Smackity
                                                    Fan. ;->

                                                    Saionji no Hanae
                                                    West Kingdom
                                                  • Jason Adams
                                                    LOL well, that s ok. Maybe not a Yoda, but I have great respect for anyone with a good grip on the smackity fan! We need to hold a Takeshi s castle (MXC)
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Feb 5, 2007
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                                                      LOL well, that's ok. Maybe not a Yoda, but I have great respect for
                                                      anyone with a good grip on the smackity fan! We need to hold a
                                                      "Takeshi's castle" (MXC) sometime! lol

                                                      -Jason

                                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Well, our eyes are sort of the same
                                                      > pond-scum-shining-in-the-morning-sun color, but I'm much taller and
                                                      > prettier (even on a bad day). And I'm pretty good with The Smackity
                                                      > Fan. ;->
                                                      >
                                                      > Saionji no Hanae
                                                      > West Kingdom
                                                      >
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