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Crests

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  • chasrmartin
    Guys, are you sure the issue isn t the word crest ? It seems you re talking about two things, and talking past one another. On the one hand, there is the
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 11, 2006
      Guys, are you sure the issue isn't the word "crest"? It seems you're
      talking about two things, and talking past one another. On the one
      hand, there is the _mon_ that is painted/lacquered/gilded on the
      "forehead" of many styles of _men_. On the other, there is the
      figurative ornament stuck to the top or forehead.

      As I recall, the goodie on top of the helmet was an ornament that
      mainly served to give the wearer an impressive appearance (and having
      tried fighting with a paleolithic version of one, I can tell you it's
      supremely impractical for actual combat, no doubt explaining why it
      was mostly limited to guys sitting on hills watching battles.) While
      I'm sure that they achieved a sort of "trademark" status, I don't
      believe I recall they were in any way either inherited as designs or
      were officially tracked.

      On the other hand, the gilded painted-on _mon_ *was* certainly
      inherited, and (as I recall) was tracked as specific to a family even
      in the more restrictive notion of "period" that seems to be the
      fashion now, ie, pre-1600CE.

      - Mugyo
    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
      ... It s hard to say that is was specific to a family. Perusing Hawley s work, you will quickly notice that many kamon, while used within a particular
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 11, 2006
        On 12/11/06, chasrmartin <chasrmartin@...> wrote:
        >
        > On the other hand, the gilded painted-on _mon_ *was* certainly
        > inherited, and (as I recall) was tracked as specific to a family even
        > in the more restrictive notion of "period" that seems to be the
        > fashion now, ie, pre-1600CE.

        It's hard to say that is was 'specific' to a family. Perusing
        Hawley's work, you will quickly notice that many kamon, while used
        within a particular family, would not be restricted to just that
        family. Many people used the exact same kamon, and as I recall, you
        had the difference between the personal kamon of members of the
        family, and the 'public' mon used by their retainers and such.

        What I've seen of the records that were tracked were actually
        combinations: Family A uses these kamon, the following standards and
        banners, while Family B uses these other kamon, standards, and
        banners. It may be that the standard, banner, or kamon may be the
        same between two people, but the overall combination of them should be
        specific to an individual.

        Regarding the maedate, or helmet crests, I'm not sure if those were
        ever controlled or regulated. I think people's armour came to be
        known (just like in the SCA), but I don't think it was necessarily a
        rule that they always used the same maedate, helmet, etc.

        -Ii
      • Brendan Barth
        Thank you both Mugyo and Ii for your information and all the other information recieved. The piece I was trying to understand was the ornate antlers and horns
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 11, 2006
          Thank you both Mugyo and Ii for your information and all the other
          information recieved. The piece I was trying to understand was the ornate
          antlers and horns attached to the kabuto and your information will be
          helpful in creating my own when I create my kabuto. Of course, I will make
          it removable since I do want to fight in it. Again thank you all for the
          information.

          Ashina no Karasu

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        • M. J. Peters
          I ll stay out of the sumptuary part of this (not my area). The term is Tatemono. There is a phonetic shift when it moves to a second position. (i.e. MaeDate).
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 11, 2006
            I'll stay out of the sumptuary part of this (not my area).

            The term is Tatemono. There is a phonetic shift when it moves to a
            second position. (i.e. MaeDate). If you're going to google it spelling
            it correctly should help.
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I am fully aware of the difference and mentioned it in an earlier posting. I pointed out that there is no particular
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 11, 2006
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > Guys, are you sure the issue isn't the word "crest"? It seems you're
              > talking about two things, and talking past one another. On the one
              > hand, there is the _mon_ that is painted/lacquered/gilded on the
              > "forehead" of many styles of _men_. On the other, there is the
              > figurative ornament stuck to the top or forehead.

              I am fully aware of the difference and mentioned it in an earlier
              posting. I pointed out that there is
              no particular relationship between the decorative helmet ornament
              which shows up on the helmets
              of high-ranking bushi and kamon.

              > I'm sure that they achieved a sort of "trademark" status,

              They have. They were recorded in guidebooks. If you go shopping for a
              set of armour for boy's day,
              you will be presented with the opportunity to buy a helmet matching
              your particular hero. However,
              one particularly attractive design is traditionally reserved to
              handicapped children and is considered
              bad luck to give to child who lacks handicaps.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... This makes for even more complication as a helmet can have both antlers or whatever AND a central maedate as well.
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 11, 2006
                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!
                > Thank you both Mugyo and Ii for your information and all the other
                > information recieved. The piece I was trying to understand was the
                > ornate
                > antlers and horns attached to the kabuto and your information will be
                > helpful in creating my own when I create my kabuto. Of course, I
                > will make
                > it removable since I do want to fight in it. Again thank you all
                > for the
                > information.
                This makes for even more complication as a helmet can have both
                antlers or whatever AND a central maedate as well. The antlers or
                other tall projections are called "kuwagata" and they are anchored at
                the front of the helmet by a "kuwagatadai". Incidentally, the rivets
                or bumps on the helmet are called
                "hoshi" as in stars.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I received a note claiming that it was date as in the family. Actually, there is such a word (although the mono in
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 11, 2006
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > The term is Tatemono. There is a phonetic shift when it moves to a
                  > second position. (i.e. MaeDate). If you're going to google it spelling
                  > it correctly should help.

                  I received a note claiming that it was "date" as in the family.
                  Actually, there is such a word
                  (although the mono in question is the one also read as SHA) and the
                  word "datemono"
                  means a dandy or a dude. Yes really! Those of you here who know the
                  Date in AEthelmearc
                  can easily appreciate the humor in this.

                  As always. Beware the Japanese homonym. There are four distinct ways
                  to write "tatemono" each with a different meaning. These meanings
                  include a synonym for "haniwa" (the famous tomb figures), a famous
                  actor, a building, and piece of identifying military insignia.
                  Finally, there is also "datemono" as already mentioned which Daijirin
                  claims is an alternative reading for "datesha".

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
                • Date Saburou Yukiie
                  ... One must look proper when one is in the presence of the Great Lord! ;-) Date Saburou Yukiie
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 12, 2006
                    > I received a note claiming that it was "date" as in the family.
                    > Actually, there is such a word
                    > (although the mono in question is the one also read as SHA) and the
                    > word "datemono"
                    > means a dandy or a dude. Yes really! Those of you here who know the
                    > Date in AEthelmearc
                    > can easily appreciate the humor in this.

                    One must look proper when one is in the presence of the Great Lord! ;-)

                    Date Saburou Yukiie
                  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                    ... Exactly. After all, it is to honor him that you wear your finest, not to bring any honor to oneself, ne? -Yamaiii
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 12, 2006
                      On 12/12/06, Date Saburou Yukiie <dateyukiie@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > One must look proper when one is in the presence of the Great Lord! ;-)
                      >
                      > Date Saburou Yukiie

                      Exactly. After all, it is to honor him that you wear your finest, not
                      to bring any honor to oneself, ne?


                      -Yamaiii
                    • wodeford
                      ... Just keep telling yourself that, boys. (Laughing behind fan.) Saionji no Hanae West Kingdom
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 12, 2006
                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)"
                        <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Exactly. After all, it is to honor him that you wear your finest, not
                        > to bring any honor to oneself, ne?

                        Just keep telling yourself that, boys. (Laughing behind fan.)

                        Saionji no Hanae
                        West Kingdom
                      • Erin Kelly
                        Oooh, which one is for handicapped boys? Speaking of these large kabuto ornaments, I know that Ogami-dono and his colleagues have made several lovely kabuto
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 12, 2006
                          Oooh, which one is for handicapped boys?

                          Speaking of these large kabuto ornaments, I know that Ogami-dono and
                          his colleagues have made several lovely kabuto with these in the past
                          year or two. They are attached with magnets so that they can be
                          removed for SCA combat. I don't see photos in the Projects section
                          (www.yamakaminari.com) but there were plenty of photos taken at Pennsic
                          last. Aha, if you go to the photo albums section and look in Pennsic
                          35, Boris's album, there's a picture of the spiff kabuto on the first
                          album page.

                          ERIN

                          -----

                          1e. Re: Crests From: Solveig Throndardottir


                          < ... >

                          They have. They were recorded in guidebooks. If you go shopping for a
                          set of armour for boy's day,
                          you will be presented with the opportunity to buy a helmet matching
                          your particular hero. However,
                          one particularly attractive design is traditionally reserved to
                          handicapped children and is considered
                          bad luck to give to child who lacks handicaps.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar
                        • sekinakagawa@aol.com
                          Saionji no Hanae, I think I am with you on this one. Although I don t hide behind fans, ! Nakagawa Sukeie To ask a question may be a moments shame, But not
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 12, 2006
                            Saionji no Hanae, I think I am with you on this one. Although I don't hide
                            behind fans, !

                            Nakagawa Sukeie

                            To ask a question may be a moments shame,
                            But not to ask and remain ignorant is a life long shame.


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