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Datemono

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  • Brendan Barth
    Are the datemono (helmet crests) on the kabuto associated with either a title, rank and/or family? Also, if so, what would be the stipulation on the datemono?
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 8, 2006
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      Are the datemono (helmet crests) on the kabuto associated with either a
      title, rank and/or family? Also, if so, what would be the stipulation on
      the datemono?

      Ashina no Karasu

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • b1laxson
      IIRC the helmet crests where basically how the Japanese handled heraldry. It was the helmet crest that stood out visually. In europe they used colourful
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 8, 2006
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        IIRC the helmet crests where basically how the Japanese handled
        heraldry. It was the helmet crest that stood out visually. In europe
        they used colourful shields.

        As such a certain helmet crest was known to be worn by "mr so and
        so". The famous ones are fairly unique.

        Its not that say every captain wore a certain crest but rather crest
        A was for MR A.

        I have some recollection of reading of one general who made a group
        (his bodyguard?) all wear helmet crests that looked like tall
        courtier caps (or something).

        To my limited knowledge there was no registry of crests where as the
        europeans developed rules for their heraldy.

        Suffice to say... I think if you make a helmet crest it will be
        okay... provided you are not intending to wear it into combat.

        The problem with wearing it into combat is that many Marshalls will
        consider it an edge like surface that might damage a weapon or a
        person.

        If you want to use a crest on your battle helmet make it removeable.


        Brian the Green
        (also a Marshal)

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Brendan Barth" <barkowsky444@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Are the datemono (helmet crests) on the kabuto associated with
        either a
        > title, rank and/or family? Also, if so, what would be the
        stipulation on
        > the datemono?
        >
        > Ashina no Karasu
        >
      • wodeford
        ... stipulation on ... Of possible interest, http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/maedate.html Saionji no Hanae West Kingdom
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 9, 2006
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Brendan Barth" <barkowsky444@...> wrote:
          >
          > Are the datemono (helmet crests) on the kabuto associated with either a
          > title, rank and/or family? Also, if so, what would be the
          stipulation on
          > the datemono?

          Of possible interest,
          http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/yoriaku/maedate.html

          Saionji no Hanae
          West Kingdom
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I doubt that you have the correct term there. Generally speaking, there is no particular relationship between helmet
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 9, 2006
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > Are the datemono (helmet crests) on the kabuto associated with
            > either a
            > title, rank and/or family? Also, if so, what would be the
            > stipulation on
            > the datemono?

            I doubt that you have the correct term there. Generally speaking,
            there is no particular relationship between helmet crests and the
            other heraldry used by the wearer. I believe that you are asking
            about the actual crests immediately above the forehead and not simply
            weapon catching appendages of various sorts. As for you actual
            question, actual helmet crests appear to be the province of very high
            ranking generals. There is of course an exception to this in the form
            of certain helmets worn by police and similar units during the Edo
            period where there is a crest painted on the upturned front of a
            helmet which always reminds me of a doughboy helmet.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... While I do not know of an actual heraldic authority in premodern Japan, illustrated guidebooks showing the kamon,
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 9, 2006
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              Noble Cousins!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > To my limited knowledge there was no registry of crests where as the
              > europeans developed rules for their heraldy.

              While I do not know of an actual heraldic authority in premodern Japan,
              illustrated guidebooks showing the kamon, standards, &c. associated
              with various individuals &c. were written and published. How early these
              were being published is something which I do not know.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The most commonly encounter item of this general sort is a small flag worn on the back of the helmet. This had the
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 9, 2006
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! The most commonly encounter item of this
                general sort is a small flag worn on the back of the helmet. This had
                the practical purpose of distinguishing running enemy from running
                unit members. These little flags were typically simply decorated with
                horizontal stripes in livery colours.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
              • Brendan Barth
                Noble Cousin! I thank you for your information. I just wanted to comment on the term. I recieved the term for a Laurel with an MA in Japanese history. I do
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 10, 2006
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  I thank you for your information. I just wanted to comment on the term. I
                  recieved the term for a Laurel with an MA in Japanese history. I do know
                  that the term Datemono refers to the crest worn on the forhead of the
                  helmet. Just wanted to get the correct information out there. I don't want
                  this to sound as an attack. Again thank you for your information on the
                  subject.

                  Ashina no Karasu


                  From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                  Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Datemono
                  Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 01:03:42 -0500

                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > Are the datemono (helmet crests) on the kabuto associated with
                  > either a
                  > title, rank and/or family? Also, if so, what would be the
                  > stipulation on
                  > the datemono?

                  I doubt that you have the correct term there. Generally speaking,
                  there is no particular relationship between helmet crests and the
                  other heraldry used by the wearer. I believe that you are asking
                  about the actual crests immediately above the forehead and not simply
                  weapon catching appendages of various sorts. As for you actual
                  question, actual helmet crests appear to be the province of very high
                  ranking generals. There is of course an exception to this in the form
                  of certain helmets worn by police and similar units during the Edo
                  period where there is a crest painted on the upturned front of a
                  helmet which always reminds me of a doughboy helmet.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  _________________________________________________________________
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                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Are you really sure that you are remembering the term correctly? The problem that I am having with it is finding it
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 10, 2006
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > I just wanted to comment on the term. I recieved the term for a
                    > Laurel with an MA in Japanese history.

                    Are you really sure that you are remembering the term correctly? The
                    problem that I am having with it is
                    finding it with the necessary meaning in any of the following:

                    4-09-501503-9
                    4-06-121009-2
                    4-469-02115-6
                    4-385-13343-3
                    4-385-14000-6

                    I suspect that you are trying to recall the term "maedatemono" which
                    does exist in dictionaries. Actually,
                    this term is quite generic and covers several different items that
                    can be affixed to the front of helmets.
                    For example, this term also covers "kuwagata" which are large
                    appendages which project from the helmet.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar
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