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RE: [SCA-JML] New Topic? Was Kegutsu!

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  • Michael Peters
    Sukeie, Regardless of the perfect court representations espoussed by some, kegutsu are a practical approach to footwear on the field. I expect that Sirs Ogami,
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 21, 2006
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      Sukeie,

      Regardless of the perfect court representations espoussed by some, kegutsu
      are a practical approach to footwear on the field. I expect that Sirs Ogami,
      Raito, Maikeru etc. would much prefer seeing a good kegutsu attempt on the
      field than tennis shoes or combat boots. Waraji are of course appropriate
      but no marshall will pass them for on field use. Someone who doesn't fight's
      pet peeve should not dissuade you from *your* artistic endeavours.


      >From: "Ezequiel" <sekinakagawa@...>
      >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [SCA-JML] New Topic? Was Kegutsu!
      >Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 06:45:46 -0000
      >
      >Greetings and well met!
      > I have concluded from this discussion that Kegutsu are reserve to
      >higher persona in the SCA Japanese culture, not because it is a
      >writen rule, but because we should all look at our selves as true
      >historians and try to live our personas as it was and not as we feel
      >it should be.
      >My understanding now is that you must be of a higher status to have
      >earn the right to wear the shoes, not because it is writen but
      >because is to demonstrate respect for others who feel that we should
      >attempt to live as true bushi.
      > I do remember the oldest SCA phrase "we recreate history as it
      >should have been", I do not know that this statement have change, but
      >I do respect the feelings of others.
      > Again, I never said I was going to wear them, I wish someone would
      >send me the post I wrote, implying that I would wear the Kegutsu I
      >was building, perhaps there is not such place because it is just what
      >I called it "a project". In due respect to others personal feelings
      >I wouldn't wear them. However, the topic originally was intending to
      >point out the fact that I actually had made something and was hoping
      >for honest opinions about the project.
      > This is most definitively a great learning experience. Domo-
      >arigato.
      >
      >Humbly.
      >Nakagawa Sukeie
      >
      >
      >
      >

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    • John Lyon
      Well I feel compelled to ask a question and then comment after having read so much on this topic. My question is this: How exactly does one determine the rank
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 22, 2006
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        Well I feel compelled to ask a question and then comment after having read
        so much on this topic. My question is this: How exactly does one determine
        the rank of their persona versus their rank within the society? I understand
        that there are restrictions on what you can call yourself and what you can
        wear. I can't call myself "Master" or "Grace" I can't wear a crown or Spurs.
        But how does my status (i.e. awards) within the society dictate the limits
        of my persona? If I didn't have an AOA should I not consider myself a lord?
        Should I dress and carry myself as a peasent Spearman? Should my armor
        reflect whatever my SCA status is?

        What concerns me about this whole discussion isn't the particular topic
        about the sort of people who wore a particular type of shoe in Japanese
        history. It is people telling other people that they are essentially playing
        the game wrong. We as Japanese personas get very upset when people tell us
        that the SCA is a euro-centric recreation society and that if we want to do
        Japanese then we need to go somewhere else to do it. I have heard precious
        little in this discussion about informing the person who was working on
        these very nice looking boots about who wore these sorts of things, and alot
        of veiled implications that he was wrong for even making them because it
        implied he was somehow stepping over his authority or rank.

        It has been pointed out to me by non-japanese friends that if I wanted to
        wear an unadorned silver chain or to wear a red belt that I could. I have
        told them that I don't for the same reason I don't wear a Daisho, I don't
        want to send a message that I think I am anyone's squire or think myself a
        Samuari which I equate to knight. The truth of the matter is that I can and
        that there is nothing within the laws of the society that says I can't. Some
        things are reserved for people who have achieved a certain recognition
        within the Society, none of the things I have listed are on that list. We
        make a great many accomadations within the SCA to both the realities of
        modern life and to the fact that we must be inclusive. When each of us
        submit a mon to the college of heralds, it must fit French Heraldic
        language, Knights wear chains even though the symbology for a samuari were
        his swords and not chain and spurs (and even the chains are an SCA
        affectation). One of the things that I love about the SCA is that there is a
        level of acceptance for difference that doesn't exist in other groups. My
        kit is really pretty crummy, I work to much for too little money, and have
        too little skill to make it look like I would like to. I sleep in a nylon
        tent, my armor is made of plastic, I wear black steel toed boots, I don't
        speak any Japanese, hell I don't even know much about ancient japanese
        history. And despite all of these glaring failures and faults I am still
        welcomed and made to feel part of this wonderful group. I am encouraged by
        everyone I know to strive for more than I have achieved thus far and
        complimented on the things I have done right. I am tutored and educated,
        guided and mentored towards increasing levels of authenticity. For that I
        will always be thankful. Santimonous arguments like the one that has been
        occuring on this list however I can pass on however. I think that we as a
        society and Japanese personas in particular are better than this.

        I apologize for taking so much time, if I have offended please contact me
        directly that I can apolgize.

        --
        "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
        thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
        things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
        take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
        -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5

        John Lyon
        aka The Ugly Dragon
        aka Kita Jiru Toramassa


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Saunders
        Thank you for so elegantly putting into words what I have been thinking. I am not a historian, Japan or or otherwise. I am just into arts and crafts, with a
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 22, 2006
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          Thank you for so elegantly putting into words what I have been thinking.
          I am not a historian, Japan or or otherwise. I am just into arts and
          crafts, with a love of things japanese. I try to make garb that is as
          period and acurate as possible for me. I don't have an extensive
          bibliography like some on here and Tousando Boards. I rely on help from
          those who do for help in finding the information I need. If I make
          mistakes, so be it. If someone tells me I am doing something wrong, then
          I ask them when they can take the time to help me do it correctly. I
          personally want to make my garb and accessories as correct as possible.
          That is my personal preference. All be I believe corpora states that the
          SCA is Western European. Japanese Personas are considered to be
          visitors. I don't believe that there was any contact in the Heien Era,
          but God help me I couldn't live without seeing the beautiful women's
          garb of that time. =T.T= (Though I can live without men's Heien garb.
          =^.-= ) I just don't understand why people have to be so angry about
          such things. Well, I've ranted long enough.

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sca-jml@yahoogroups.com> , "John
          Lyon" <toramassa@...> wrote:

          > It has been pointed out to me by non-japanese friends that if I wanted
          to
          > wear an unadorned silver chain or to wear a red belt that I could.>
          >
          > John Lyon
          > aka The Ugly Dragon
          > aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
          >

          Silver Chains?!?! What are silver chains for? I'm so confused. I think
          I'll grow an enormous red nose and walk around in fundoshi and geta.


          "V‹ç

          mka Jim Saunders



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... Huh? If you are writing about me, I beg to differ. People make all sorts of things in the Society which they then
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 23, 2006
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            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > I have heard precious little in this discussion about informing the
            > person who was working on these very nice looking boots about who
            > wore these sorts of things, and alot of veiled implications that he
            > was wrong for even making them because it implied he was somehow
            > stepping over his authority or rank.

            Huh? If you are writing about me, I beg to differ. People make all
            sorts of things in the Society which they then give to other people.

            > I have told them that I don't for the same reason I don't wear a
            > Daisho, I don't want to send a message that I think I am anyone's
            > squire or think myself a
            > Samuari which I equate to knight.

            Why do you make this equation? It appears to be ahistorical. The buke
            was a huge class. Members of the buke wore two swords. The wearing of
            two swords was ,mandated during the Edo period. However, the practice
            can be dated to the Muromachi period. Basically, grunt soldiers who
            ran around bare footed in battle were entitled to wear two swords.
            This assertion can be substantiated.

            > Knights wear chains even though the symbology for a samuari were
            > his swords and not chain and spurs (and even the chains are an SCA
            > affectation).

            Ahh. I believe that you may also be misperceiving KSCA. This is
            fairly common. KSCA roughly corresponds to the Order of the Garter,
            the Order of the Bath, &c. Historically, Western europe had more
            knights (mounted soldiers) than it had members of one of the knightly
            orders. That said, a medieval Western european army would be composed
            of members of such knightly orders, ordinary knights, and also foot
            soldiers generally called men at arms.

            > My armor is made of plastic

            As discussed ad nauseum previously, plastic armor can look A LOT like
            lacquered Japanese armour. Unless you are planning on making an
            exhibition piece, you are probably better off making your armor out
            of well selected plastic than going to a LOT of work using
            potentially dangerous lacquer to make something which looks pretty
            much the same to most people.

            > Someone who doesn't fight's pet peeve should not dissuade you from
            > *your* artistic endeavours.

            Does something being an "artistic endeavor" automatically justify its
            existence or use in the Society? How about a replica of a Saturn V
            rocket?
            The question is not whether or not something is perfectly authentic,
            but whether or not someone values authenticity and is making a
            reasonable
            attempt within their own means and ability to recreate that which was.

            Suppose I really really like the court robes of the Japanese Emperor.
            Should I wear them at court arguing that this specific clothing is
            not written into the official rules? To my way of thinking, this is
            every bit as much cheating as the folks in Septemptria who wore
            unadorned gold chains arguing that a little makers tag worn invisibly
            to the back of the neck distinguished their gold chains from the
            chain of a knight. How about a white belt with a couple of little
            colored tabs at the extreme ends?

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • John Lyon
            ... My apologies if I made it seem like I was making comments about you, that certainly wasn t my intention. I found myself responding to what *I Perceived*
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 23, 2006
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              On 11/23/06, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
              >

              >
              > Huh? If you are writing about me, I beg to differ. People make all
              > sorts of things in the Society which they then give to other people.

              My apologies if I made it seem like I was making comments about you,
              that certainly wasn't my intention. I found myself responding to what
              *I Perceived* about the general tone of the discussion. In truth I
              wasn't looking for different people's names and perhaps I should have
              been more cautious before I spoke. Again my apologies.
              >
              > > I have told them that I don't for the same reason I don't wear a
              > > Daisho, I don't want to send a message that I think I am anyone's
              > > squire or think myself a
              > > Samuari which I equate to knight.
              >
              > Why do you make this equation? It appears to be ahistorical. The buke
              > was a huge class. Members of the buke wore two swords. The wearing of
              > two swords was ,mandated during the Edo period. However, the practice
              > can be dated to the Muromachi period. Basically, grunt soldiers who
              > ran around bare footed in battle were entitled to wear two swords.
              > This assertion can be substantiated.

              The reason is a personal one. Just as I know that there is nothing
              that stops me from wearing a red belt and a silver chain, I know that
              there is nothing that stops me from wearing a daisho. I thank you for
              the bit of information about the historical practice related to the
              swords, as I have stated my historical knowledge is shocking in it's
              limits. But my feeling on the subject isn't changed, with the belt or
              the swords people might still believe I am claiming something I am
              not. Some might ask me and others will simply assume that I am. The
              Daisho in most minds (like mine) have heard that it is a symbol of a
              Samuari, and if Samuari are equvilant to knights then you have the
              obvious assertion.
              >

              > Ahh. I believe that you may also be misperceiving KSCA. This is
              > fairly common. KSCA roughly corresponds to the Order of the Garter,
              > the Order of the Bath, &c. Historically, Western europe had more
              > knights (mounted soldiers) than it had members of one of the knightly
              > orders. That said, a medieval Western european army would be composed
              > of members of such knightly orders, ordinary knights, and also foot
              > soldiers generally called men at arms.

              Again thank you for your clarification on this point. Likewise the
              point about the armor is well made. My plastic armor looks like crap.
              It's version 2.5 made with what I had available to I could fight. I am
              working on nicer stuff using the plates from Noble Plastics. Got them
              as a xmas present and I'm still working.

              >
              > > Someone who doesn't fight's pet peeve should not dissuade you from
              > > *your* artistic endeavours.
              >
              > Does something being an "artistic endeavor" automatically justify its
              > existence or use in the Society? How about a replica of a Saturn V
              > rocket?
              > The question is not whether or not something is perfectly authentic,
              > but whether or not someone values authenticity and is making a
              > reasonable
              > attempt within their own means and ability to recreate that which was.
              >
              > Suppose I really really like the court robes of the Japanese Emperor.
              > Should I wear them at court arguing that this specific clothing is
              > not written into the official rules? To my way of thinking, this is
              > every bit as much cheating as the folks in Septemptria who wore
              > unadorned gold chains arguing that a little makers tag worn invisibly
              > to the back of the neck distinguished their gold chains from the
              > chain of a knight. How about a white belt with a couple of little
              > colored tabs at the extreme ends?
              >

              I will respond to you even though I didn't make the orginal comment.
              Artistic endeavors and authenticity are not necessarily the same
              thing. Since the SCA is a organization with relatively clear limits as
              to what is within our scope and what lies beyond it (your milage may
              very) we can all agree that building a Saturn V rocket would not pass
              the test of SCAdian Authenticity. Likewise as you yourself pointed out
              there is a difference between the act of creation and the act of
              wearing. I have made gold Knight's Chains, I don't wear them I created
              them as a gift for a friend who was knighted. People who wear gold
              chains or white belts and are not knights are clearly claiming
              authority that they are not entitled to. The SCA has stated in clear
              terms that anyone wearing those has a certain level of status within
              the society. Clothing is again a stickier subject though. Let us say
              that you had made a beautiful set of Garb that was a entirely
              authentic recreation of 10th century Scottish Queen, the only thing
              you haven't got to make it complete is the crown. I think you and I
              can agree that the act of creation is not claiming any special status,
              neither would be the act of displaying the creation in an A&S
              competition. In both cases the person and the object are seperated.
              But When you put on your gown are you claiming that you are a queen? I
              would argue no. My reasoning is that the SCA as a general organization
              recognizes royalty by the hat, not their garb. There might be some
              people who will recognize what you have recreated and comment. I would
              guess that most people would simply see an impressive set of garb. And
              with Garb in particular it is my understanding that fashions change,
              sometimes with shocking speed. What might have once been a dress worn
              only by a Queen is now worn by high born noble ladies who wish to
              emulate their Queen.


              --
              "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I
              thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible
              things that happen to us come becuase we actually deserve them? So, now I
              take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
              -Marcus to Franklin in Babylon 5

              John Lyon
              aka The Ugly Dragon
              aka Kita Jiru Toramassa
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Rest assured that I will not run after you with a set of daisho, however, I do wish to expound a bit further on the
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 24, 2006
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                Rest assured that I will not run after you with a set of daisho,
                however, I do wish to expound a bit further on the subject. Generally
                speaking, swords were a secondary weapon. A bushi would have a
                primary weapon which might be a spear, a naginata, or a bow. Of the
                primary weapons, the bow had the highest status. You can see this in
                the accounts of the death of Atsumori. Consequently, if you do not
                wish to carry two swords, you should consider carrying a spear or
                naginata in addition to your sword. Also, the correct sword to wear
                would most probably be the wakazashi as it was used to take heads and
                for similar purposes.
                > I will respond to you even though I didn't make the orginal comment.

                Don't worry. There are differing opinions about whether or not to
                combine replies. I seem to get into trouble from someone or other no
                matter which approach I take.

                > But When you put on your gown are you claiming that you are a queen? I
                > would argue no.

                This is indeed problematic. The emblems of royalty vary a lot from
                culture to culture even within Western Europe. If I were to claim to
                be Irish and to wear the historical tokens of Irish nobility then I
                would be presumptuous. If, however, I claim to be Spanish and these
                Irish tokens are of no significance in Spain, then I would not be
                presumptuous. While the Society recommends certain specific crowns
                for various titles, this use is not at all uniform. I now of at least
                one pair of monarchs who adopted Byzantine crowns. To some extent,
                "da rules" recognize this through such documents as the alternate
                title list. Consequently, if you were to style yourself as a Graaf
                you would be every bit as presumptuous as styling yourself a "count"
                unless of course you happen to be a count.

                > My reasoning is that the SCA as a general organization recognizes
                > royalty by the hat, not their garb.

                Incidentally, various Japanese imperial outfits include some pretty
                spectacular hats.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
              • Andy
                ... As a side note in this conversation, but kind of going in a different direction. Out here in the Kingdom of Atenveldt we had a Baron and Baroness that
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 25, 2006
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                  > While the Society recommends certain specific crowns
                  > for various titles, this use is not at all uniform. I now of at least
                  > one pair of monarchs who adopted Byzantine crowns. To some extent,
                  > "da rules" recognize this through such documents as the alternate
                  > title list. Consequently, if you were to style yourself as a Graaf
                  > you would be every bit as presumptuous as styling yourself a "count"
                  > unless of course you happen to be a count.

                  As a side note in this conversation, but kind of going in a different
                  direction.

                  Out here in the Kingdom of Atenveldt we had a Baron and Baroness that
                  during the period of their personas (Late English I do believe) people
                  of their rank wore a certain type of hat instead of any kind of crown.
                  So they made hats to match their entire court garb and instead of
                  wearing their crowns when they held court they wore these hats. Now
                  there were a very vocal group of people (none of them from the eastern
                  personas by the way) that said that it was wrong for them to do so
                  because the Atenveldt by laws recognized crowns but not these hats
                  (which were very cute by the way). Now weather they gave in to
                  pressure, or they just decided to change, they are now wearing their
                  crowns again.

                  I just find that it’s interesting that we are worried about weather we
                  are being presumptuous in wearing Kegutsu, yet certain members in the
                  society would get offended if we were to use them to show rank instead
                  of the SCA dictated rank symbol.

                  Yagyu Tametomo
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