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Another name/mon question...

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  • toshirosakuma
    Konnichiwa! I apologize for starting a new series of E-mails in these particular subjects, but Im afraid Im new to the system and was unsure as of where to
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 12, 2006
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      Konnichiwa! I apologize for starting a new series of E-mails in these
      particular subjects, but Im afraid Im new to the system and was unsure
      as of where to put these questions. I am also new to SCA which is
      really why the questions are being asked! :) First off, I have
      mulled over and over searching for a name that had some relevancy, and
      believe to have found it. Katsuna no Sokuma was what I believed to be
      the formal way, with the English arrangement of Sokuma Katsuna. I was
      wondering if this particular phrasing would pass as nearly authentic,
      and if it even made much sense. I would like what we consider "first
      name" to be Sokuma, as everyone in my barony already calls me "kuma".
      Please if you have any insight I would appreciate it very much.
      Secondly, what are the guidelines when creating a mon? I have a
      general idea of what Im looking for, but once again would like to
      create it properly. Arigato gazoaimasu, Sean "Kuma" Summers

      p.s. I realize that my registered name is "sakuma" with an A, please
      disregard as it was a temporary brain fart on my part when registering
      for the group! :) Domo!
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Actually, there was a rather famous Sakuma a while back in Japan. Sokuma is another thing. Where does this come from?
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 13, 2006
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! Actually, there was a rather famous Sakuma a
        while
        back in Japan. Sokuma is another thing. Where does this come from?
        Although my SHARP PA 8500 is familiar with Sakuma, it has never heard of
        Sokuma. Although somewhat unusual, my SHARP PA 8500 knows about
        two examples of Katsuna. Do you have any particular ideas you are
        trying
        to capture or are you most interested in the sound? Also, what period
        and
        social class are you trying to recreate? These are significant
        factors in
        designing a name. Finally, including a -no- tends to be pretentious.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
      • Sean
        Im glad that you said that Solveg, as it did seem a bit much to add such formailty to my name. The decision to go with Sokuma rather than Sakuma was also one
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 13, 2006
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          Im glad that you said that Solveg, as it did seem a bit much to add such formailty to my name. The decision to go with Sokuma rather than Sakuma was also one I wanted to check with someone more knowledgeable, as I was under the impression that 'So'kuma was the masculine conjugation as apposed to 'Sa'kuma would be associated with a more feminine conjugation. I wanted to have the suffix of my name as 'kuma' and through research had come across the 'So' and 'Sa' prefixes. As far as Katsuna goes, I could be waaay off on this one, but I am wanting to represent a poorer, yes you read it right, more impoverished ronin. As such I wanted to stay away from the more well known and popular surnames that were coupled with aristocracy and wealth. Like I said I may be way off on that one. As far as period goes, Im thinking toward the end of the Edo, right before the Meiji Restoration. Please let me know if this does not hold any water. arigato goziamasu,
          Kuma.





          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Solveig Throndardottir
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:05 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Another name/mon question...


          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! Actually, there was a rather famous Sakuma a
          while
          back in Japan. Sokuma is another thing. Where does this come from?
          Although my SHARP PA 8500 is familiar with Sakuma, it has never heard of
          Sokuma. Although somewhat unusual, my SHARP PA 8500 knows about
          two examples of Katsuna. Do you have any particular ideas you are
          trying
          to capture or are you most interested in the sound? Also, what period
          and
          social class are you trying to recreate? These are significant
          factors in
          designing a name. Finally, including a -no- tends to be pretentious.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar






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        • Brendan Barth
          The term no in the middle of ones name is not pretentious, for most names prior to the 15th century had no in their name. All that it means is of the .
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 18, 2006
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            The term 'no' in the middle of ones name is not pretentious, for most names
            prior to the 15th century had 'no' in their name. All that it means is 'of
            the'. Such as a frenchman using 'de' in his name. Just my piece.

            Ashina no karasu


            From: "Sean" <ssummers46@...>
            Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Another name/mon question...
            Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:58:40 -0600

            Im glad that you said that Solveg, as it did seem a bit much to add such
            formailty to my name. The decision to go with Sokuma rather than Sakuma was
            also one I wanted to check with someone more knowledgeable, as I was under
            the impression that 'So'kuma was the masculine conjugation as apposed to
            'Sa'kuma would be associated with a more feminine conjugation. I wanted to
            have the suffix of my name as 'kuma' and through research had come across
            the 'So' and 'Sa' prefixes. As far as Katsuna goes, I could be waaay off on
            this one, but I am wanting to represent a poorer, yes you read it right,
            more impoverished ronin. As such I wanted to stay away from the more well
            known and popular surnames that were coupled with aristocracy and wealth.
            Like I said I may be way off on that one. As far as period goes, Im
            thinking toward the end of the Edo, right before the Meiji Restoration.
            Please let me know if this does not hold any water. arigato goziamasu,
            Kuma.





            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Solveig Throndardottir
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:05 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Another name/mon question...


            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig! Actually, there was a rather famous Sakuma a
            while
            back in Japan. Sokuma is another thing. Where does this come from?
            Although my SHARP PA 8500 is familiar with Sakuma, it has never heard of
            Sokuma. Although somewhat unusual, my SHARP PA 8500 knows about
            two examples of Katsuna. Do you have any particular ideas you are
            trying
            to capture or are you most interested in the sound? Also, what period
            and
            social class are you trying to recreate? These are significant
            factors in
            designing a name. Finally, including a -no- tends to be pretentious.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar






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          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Sorry, but -no- is not really a free form in names. While the joshi no does pretty much mean of its use in names
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 18, 2006
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > The term 'no' in the middle of ones name is not pretentious, for
              > most names
              > prior to the 15th century had 'no' in their name. All that it
              > means is 'of
              > the'. Such as a frenchman using 'de' in his name. Just my piece.

              Sorry, but -no- is not really a free form in names. While the joshi
              "no" does pretty much mean "of" its use in names does not work quite
              as you describe. For example, -no- is generally encountered as a
              conjunctive element between an uji name and a personal name. Also,
              "no" appears as the beginning of a number of titular elements such as
              "nokami". I suggest that you read further about this. You can read
              either "Japan's Name Culture" by Herbert Plutschow or you can read
              the various writings of Mass. Since you obviously choose to
              disbelieve me, I will not recommend my own modest pamphlet for your
              consideration. Beyond Mass and Plutschow, you can read Japanese texts
              on the subject. To be blunt, I am not the only writer in English who
              associates status with the use of conjunctive "no" in names. FInally,
              your assertion about the general use of ''no" prior to the 15th
              century appears to be counter-factual.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • Sean
              Solveig, Thank you for your insight into this matter. I was curious as if you had any more thoughts on the Katsuna family name that I had chosen. I ve
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 18, 2006
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                Solveig,

                Thank you for your insight into this matter. I was curious as if you had any more thoughts on the "Katsuna" family name that I had chosen. I've looked as much as I could on the internet, and I must be looking in all of the wrong places. The two sources you sited below are new to me, so I will be looking to them further. Once again thanks again, Kuma

                p.s. I sincerely apologize for the earlier typo of you name. Please forgive as I did not catch it earlier. Domo.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Solveig Throndardottir
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 8:07 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Another name/mon question...


                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > The term 'no' in the middle of ones name is not pretentious, for
                > most names
                > prior to the 15th century had 'no' in their name. All that it
                > means is 'of
                > the'. Such as a frenchman using 'de' in his name. Just my piece.

                Sorry, but -no- is not really a free form in names. While the joshi
                "no" does pretty much mean "of" its use in names does not work quite
                as you describe. For example, -no- is generally encountered as a
                conjunctive element between an uji name and a personal name. Also,
                "no" appears as the beginning of a number of titular elements such as
                "nokami". I suggest that you read further about this. You can read
                either "Japan's Name Culture" by Herbert Plutschow or you can read
                the various writings of Mass. Since you obviously choose to
                disbelieve me, I will not recommend my own modest pamphlet for your
                consideration. Beyond Mass and Plutschow, you can read Japanese texts
                on the subject. To be blunt, I am not the only writer in English who
                associates status with the use of conjunctive "no" in names. FInally,
                your assertion about the general use of ''no" prior to the 15th
                century appears to be counter-factual.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar






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              • James Eckman
                ... Taking a quick peek at LINK+ I see Mr. Plutschow has some other interesting books as well. He may have more, but they may not be accessible in the
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 19, 2006
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                  > You can read either "Japan's Name Culture" by Herbert Plutschow or you can read
                  > the various writings of Mass.
                  > Solveig Throndardottir

                  Taking a quick peek at LINK+ I see Mr. Plutschow has some other
                  interesting books as well. He may have more, but they may not be
                  accessible in the California system.

                  Chaos And Cosmos : Ritual In Early And Medieval Japanese Literature
                  Four Japanese Travel Diaries Of The Middle Ages
                  The Grand Tea Master
                  Historical Kyoto
                  Introducing Kyoto
                  Japan's Name Culture : The Significance Of Names In A Religious,
                  political, And Social Context
                  Matsuri : The Festivals Of Japan
                  Rediscovering Rikyu And The Beginnings Of The Japanese Tea Ceremony

                  Is the Mass you're talking about Jeffrey P?
                  Antiquity And Anachronism In Japanese History
                  The Bakufu In Japanese History
                  Court And Bakufu In Japan : Essays In Kamakura History
                  The Development Of Kamakura Rule, 1180-1250 : A History With Documents
                  The Kamakura Bakufu : A Study In Documents Mass, Jeffrey P.
                  Lordship And Inheritance In Early Medieval Japan A Study Of The Kamakura
                  Medieval Japan : Essays In Institutional History
                  The Origins Of Japan's Medieval World : Courtiers, Clerics, Warriors,
                  And Peasants In The Fourteenth Century
                  Warrior Government In Early Medieval Japan : A Study Of The Kamakura
                  Bakufu, Shugo And Jitō
                  Yoritomo And The Founding Of The First Bakufu The Origins Of Dual
                  Government In Japan

                  More fun books to read!
                  Thanks.
                  Jim Eckman
                • Sean
                  Arigato gozaimasu Eckman San! What a wealth of material! I must need to brush up on my researching skills, as I haven t run across any of these sources in my
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 19, 2006
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                    Arigato gozaimasu Eckman San!

                    What a wealth of material! I must need to brush up on my researching skills, as I haven't run across any of these sources in my search for Japanese culture! Then again I do live in Kansas so "culture" in any form is sometimes as distant as Imperial Japan! (Joking....kind of....) I can only hope that my local library will have a few of these examples. Again, domo arigato! Kuma
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: James Eckman
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:38 AM
                    Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Re: Another name/mon question...


                    > You can read either "Japan's Name Culture" by Herbert Plutschow or you can read
                    > the various writings of Mass.
                    > Solveig Throndardottir

                    Taking a quick peek at LINK+ I see Mr. Plutschow has some other
                    interesting books as well. He may have more, but they may not be
                    accessible in the California system.

                    Chaos And Cosmos : Ritual In Early And Medieval Japanese Literature
                    Four Japanese Travel Diaries Of The Middle Ages
                    The Grand Tea Master
                    Historical Kyoto
                    Introducing Kyoto
                    Japan's Name Culture : The Significance Of Names In A Religious,
                    political, And Social Context
                    Matsuri : The Festivals Of Japan
                    Rediscovering Rikyu And The Beginnings Of The Japanese Tea Ceremony

                    Is the Mass you're talking about Jeffrey P?
                    Antiquity And Anachronism In Japanese History
                    The Bakufu In Japanese History
                    Court And Bakufu In Japan : Essays In Kamakura History
                    The Development Of Kamakura Rule, 1180-1250 : A History With Documents
                    The Kamakura Bakufu : A Study In Documents Mass, Jeffrey P.
                    Lordship And Inheritance In Early Medieval Japan A Study Of The Kamakura
                    Medieval Japan : Essays In Institutional History
                    The Origins Of Japan's Medieval World : Courtiers, Clerics, Warriors,
                    And Peasants In The Fourteenth Century
                    Warrior Government In Early Medieval Japan : A Study Of The Kamakura
                    Bakufu, Shugo And Jitō
                    Yoritomo And The Founding Of The First Bakufu The Origins Of Dual
                    Government In Japan

                    More fun books to read!
                    Thanks.
                    Jim Eckman





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                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Please understand that even if Katsuna exists as a family name today, it may still be as little as 150 years old. There
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 20, 2006
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig! Please understand that even if "Katsuna"
                      exists as a family name today, it may still
                      be as little as 150 years old. There are two obvious ways to write
                      the first letter "katsu" and the "na" part may
                      be any number of things. Another possibility is to divide it as ka-
                      tsuna, but "tsuna" is also problematic as the
                      most common meaning for "tsuna" is "net". So, conceivably, "Katsuna"
                      could be "river net" which simply doesn't
                      sound much like a family name to me. Where on earth are you getting
                      "Katsuna" from?

                      There is somebody called "Takatsuna Hirofumi" (b. 1951) at Nihon
                      University in Japan. So, we can find "tsuna"
                      meaning "net" in modern Japanese family names. However, you can not
                      just leave off the "TA" of "Takatsuna" as
                      "TAKA" is a single morpheme.

                      Please understand that choosing "Takatsuna" as a Japanese family name
                      without first demonstrating that it
                      really does work as a pre-1600 Japanese family name is not much
                      better than saying that !CHYYZKY!CHCHOK
                      (where the ! are "clicks") is a 15th century English name for someone
                      living in central London. Actually it is
                      more equivalent to saying that XYLAPHONY is a good English name of
                      the period as it does work in the
                      English sound system while !CHYYZKY!CHCHOK does not.

                      Regardless, there are no entries for "Katsuna" in Dijirin first edition.
                      While Papinot's Historical and Geographical Dictionary of Japan does
                      have an entry for a family called "Katsu",
                      it does not have an entry for "Katsuna".

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yes. He died comparatively recently. He is a big name in medieval Japanese studies. Since, Herbert Plutschow was at
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 20, 2006
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > Is the Mass you're talking about Jeffrey P?

                        Yes. He died comparatively recently. He is a big name in medieval
                        Japanese studies.
                        Since, Herbert Plutschow was at least at one time on the faculty of
                        UCLA (as I recall
                        at least), his books should be available through the California
                        system. I just checked.
                        He is still at UCLA. Many years ago, I attended a tea demonstration
                        which he presided
                        over.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar
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