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Naming Question...

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  • deanna.baran
    It s mandatory to ask a naming question, right? :o) I m interested in basing a female persona on the lower levels of the kuge in the Heian period (jige?). On
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 23, 2006
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      It's mandatory to ask a naming question, right? :o)

      I'm interested in basing a female persona on the lower levels of the
      kuge in the Heian period (jige?).

      On Liza Dalby's excellent website, I was reading about Lady Murasaki's
      grandmother:

      http://www.lizadalby.com/grandmotherpage.htm

      and it mentioned that she was connected to the Miyaji clan. The Miyaji
      clan seemed pretty interesting (their hereditary duty included the
      reciting and preserving of ancient legends), but they're not coming up
      on any of the other excellent family name sites (sengokudaimyo,
      scajapan, wikipedia's kuge index, etc). I don't currently have any
      access to any print materials, no local heralds, etc.

      I understand that Miyajima is the site of an ancient mountain shrine.
      Is this the case of a locative name?

      Or does the Miya- in "Miyaji" refer to "shrine" and the Miyaji are
      palace ritualists rather than a family connected by blood? (Or are the
      ritualist positions reserved for one bloodline? The Imbe, Shirakawa,
      Urabe, and Nakatomi houses are referred to as "sacerdotal houses" and
      "ritualists". Is this the same Nakatomi as Nakatomi no Kamako, aka the
      Fujiwara founder?)

      Some articles on JSTOR make reference to "Miyaji Hiji Kuden", or,
      "Secret Oral Tradition of Palace Ritualists." But this was written in
      the 14th c. by Urabe Kanetoyo, so I don't know how relevant that is...

      The Encyclopedia of Shinto:
      http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=623
      makes reference to a 19th c. Miyaji, and says that *his* Miyaji family
      traces their lineage to a son of the legendary Prince Yamatotakeru in
      the 300's, but there's a 1500-year gap where no one's turning up in my
      searches...

      So I guess I'm having trouble... are the Miyaji archivists?
      Historians? Performers? Shrinekeepers? Part of the Jingi-kan? Taoists?
      Part of the On'yoryo? And where would their people fit in socially?
      Murasaki's grandmother and Yamatotakeru being in the family tree seem
      to be promising, but I'm hesitant to create something based on such
      vague information.

      They seemed intriguing on Dalby's page, but the more I tried to
      research them, the harder they seem to be to pin down. :o)

      Thanks for your help,
      -Deanna
    • deanna.baran
      Just to clarify, I understand that the grandmother character is related to the fictitious Lady Murasaki, not the author who was nicknamed Murasaki. :o) -Deanna
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 23, 2006
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        Just to clarify, I understand that the grandmother character is
        related to the fictitious Lady Murasaki, not the author who was
        nicknamed Murasaki. :o)

        -Deanna
      • Franzi
        ... Well, Miyajima means shrine island *, so I suppose Miyaji could be shrine+family, though I m not sure how likely this is. If anyone s curious, Miyajima
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 23, 2006
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          On Sep 23, 2006, at 8:35 PM, deanna.baran wrote:
          > I understand that Miyajima is the site of an ancient mountain shrine.
          > Is this the case of a locative name?
          Well, Miyajima means "shrine island"*, so I suppose Miyaji could be
          shrine+family, though I'm not sure how likely this is. If anyone's
          curious, Miyajima is that place that you see in all the postcards
          with the big red gate rising out of the water. Here's my rather bad
          picture of said gate: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/Franzeska/
          Miyajima/DSCN0712.jpg

          *This 'miya' could also be constellations, a palace, a prince etc.

          I'll see if I can turn up anything about the Miyaji.
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... If all you want is to get this through the CoA, then cite page 394 of the revised edition (blue cover) of NCMJ. This
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 24, 2006
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > but they're not coming up on any of the other excellent family name
            > sites (sengokudaimyo,
            > scajapan, wikipedia's kuge index, etc). I don't currently have any
            > access to any print materials, no local heralds, etc.

            If all you want is to get this through the CoA, then cite page 394 of
            the revised edition (blue cover) of NCMJ. This is on the no photocopy
            list, so you will not have to send in anything physically.

            > I understand that Miyajima is the site of an ancient mountain shrine.
            > Is this the case of a locative name?

            No. Not even possible. Jima = shima = island. You can not just break
            off part of the word for island. The actual name is 宮道 (Palace/
            Shrine Road). According to Kodansha Kogojiten, This term refers
            either to the road approaching the shrine offices or the road within
            the shrine upon which a worshiper approached the shrine proper. This
            word can be written either as 宮道 or as 宮路.

            > The Encyclopedia of Shinto:
            > http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=623
            > makes reference to a 19th c. Miyaji, and says that *his* Miyaji family
            > traces their lineage to a son of the legendary Prince Yamatotakeru in
            > the 300's, but there's a 1500-year gap where no one's turning up in my
            > searches...

            That's probably pretty reasonable. As an uji, they would generally
            trace their lineage back to legendary times.

            > So I guess I'm having trouble... are the Miyaji archivists?
            > Historians? Performers? Shrinekeepers? Part of the Jingi-kan? Taoists?
            > Part of the On'yoryo? And where would their people fit in socially?
            > Murasaki's grandmother and Yamatotakeru being in the family tree seem
            > to be promising, but I'm hesitant to create something based on such
            > vague information.

            There were minor shrine officials who dressed like Buddhist monks at
            about the time of the Genpei War. They are also called 宮路

            Yes, there is a Miyaji shire. However, I do not believe that the
            Miyaji are named for it. Incidentally, the mother of Emperor Daigo
            醍醐天皇 (897-930) was supposed to be a member of the 宮道 This
            shows up on the following web page http://www.kyoto-fushimi-kanko.jp/
            kobanashi.html

            I need to go off and do other stuff now.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • deanna.baran
            Thank you for the page number reference and the characters. I know our kingdom-level heralds have a copy that I d love to look at, but I wasn t sure when their
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 25, 2006
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              Thank you for the page number reference and the characters. I know our
              kingdom-level heralds have a copy that I'd love to look at, but I
              wasn't sure when their next consultation would be, and I like to have
              my homework done ahead of time. :o)

              My bad, I was blending Mt. Miyaji with Miyajima and forgetting in the
              process that it was Miya/jima, not Miyaji/ma. I should have been
              thinking harder. :o)

              I guess it's not just a matter of trying to find something that would
              pass the CoA, but trying to find an uji that I like enough to borrow
              their name. :o) If I wanted to be cute and fangirly, I could go with
              the Abe because Onmyouji's a cool movie, or I could go with the Taira
              because Hoichi the Earless was a cool movie, or... so on. :o) The
              Miyaji sounded unique and different and kind of obscure, so they
              seemed pretty promising.

              Many thanks to everyone for your help with the research!

              -Deanna
            • wodeford
              ... I was looking for modestly obscure and went with the Saionji myself - affiliated with the Fujiwara but not actually Fujiwara, having seen a brief footnote
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 25, 2006
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "deanna.baran" <deannabaran@...> wrote:
                > If I wanted to be cute and fangirly, I could go with
                > the Abe because Onmyouji's a cool movie, or I could go with the Taira
                > because Hoichi the Earless was a cool movie, or... so on. :o) The
                > Miyaji sounded unique and different and kind of obscure, so they
                > seemed pretty promising.

                I was looking for modestly obscure and went with the Saionji myself -
                affiliated with the Fujiwara but not actually Fujiwara, having seen a
                brief footnote to that effect in my reading. Then I did more research
                and discovered that the Saionji actually became significantly less
                obscure during the mid 13th century - the period I wanted to portray.
                Karma is a funny thing. ;->

                I love "Hoichi" - it velcroed itself into my brain and demanded to be
                told around campfires at night, basically by waking me up several
                times as I was dreaming it, usually at pivotal points in the plot.

                Saionji no Hanae, West
              • deanna.baran
                One of Lady Nijo s lovers was a Saionji, right? I think the plot in Hoichi was definitely the strongest; it was so imaginative and haunting. I have to admit,
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 26, 2006
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                  One of Lady Nijo's lovers was a Saionji, right?

                  I think the plot in "Hoichi" was definitely the strongest; it was so
                  imaginative and haunting. I have to admit, even though "The Black
                  Hair" had a weak ending, I kept wishing for a sharper print and for
                  clearer shots of his second wife and her ladies. Their costumes were
                  fabulous, though the architecture was amazing as well. The court
                  scenes in both movies were really fabulous for conveying the
                  artificiality and precision of court that I hadn't picked up on during
                  some of my first reads of the usual classics. I need to go reread
                  them. :o)

                  -Deanna
                • Ellen Badgley
                  ... No shame in that, as long as the research is there! I have picked Abe myself because Onmyouji was a cool movie, and the real Abe no Seimei and the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 26, 2006
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                    > I guess it's not just a matter of trying to find something that would
                    > pass the CoA, but trying to find an uji that I like enough to borrow
                    > their name. :o) If I wanted to be cute and fangirly, I could go with
                    > the Abe because Onmyouji's a cool movie, or I could go with the Taira
                    > because Hoichi the Earless was a cool movie, or... so on. :o) The
                    > Miyaji sounded unique and different and kind of obscure, so they
                    > seemed pretty promising.

                    No shame in that, as long as the research is there! I have picked Abe
                    myself because Onmyouji was a cool movie, and the real Abe no Seimei
                    and the Onmyouryou are pretty interesting subjects of study.

                    - Tsuchimikado no Abe Kotori
                  • deanna.baran
                    I like the Onmyouryou as well. :o) I m always on the lookout for well-done fictionalized accounts, so if you have any recommendations of good depictions, I d
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 26, 2006
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                      I like the Onmyouryou as well. :o) I'm always on the lookout for
                      well-done fictionalized accounts, so if you have any recommendations
                      of good depictions, I'd love to hear them. I haven't had the chance to
                      hunt down Onmyouji II or the tv series--- I heard they suffered in
                      comparison to the first one, but the bar was raised pretty high on the
                      original. Are they worthwhile?

                      I'm more concerned about my friends rolling their eyes at me; they
                      might get stuck like that. :o) When they do the, "What a cool name!
                      Why'd you pick it?", I'd rather tell them, "I'm Fujiwara no Whatever
                      because the Fujiwara were powerful forces behind the throne and
                      controlled things for centuries," rather than, "There was this cool
                      ghost named Sai, and I was soooooo sad when he disappeared!",
                      regardless of how much I actually cried. :o)

                      -Deanna
                    • Franzi
                      ... Speaking of which, do you have any good sources on them? I m attempting to translate the Onmyouji manga for some friends (strictly an amateur endeavor),
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 26, 2006
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ellen Badgley" <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
                        > No shame in that, as long as the research is there! I have picked Abe
                        > myself because Onmyouji was a cool movie, and the real Abe no Seimei
                        > and the Onmyouryou are pretty interesting subjects of study.

                        Speaking of which, do you have any good sources on them? I'm
                        attempting to translate the Onmyouji manga for some friends (strictly an
                        amateur endeavor), and I'd like to do some background reading.
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