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RE: [SCA-JML] Mon?

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  • Brendan Barth
    ... Moderator Note: This is a week old post that was in the moderation queue in which all first posts by new members wait for approval. This moderator
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 13, 2006
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      >> -----------
      Moderator Note: This is a week old post that was in the moderation queue in which all first posts by new members wait for approval. This moderator apologizes for the delay. - Otagiri
      >> -----------



      Konichiwa Paul,

      Here is a website that displays many mons and the family's they are
      associated with.
      http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html
      I hope this helps with your search.

      Ashina no Karasu

      From: "men_yoroi" <men_yoroi@...>
      Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [SCA-JML] Mon?
      Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:08:50 -0000

      I am working on my first suit of armour and would like to display my/a
      mon on it. Problem is there seem to be very few on google images etc,
      and I hav no idea what families they belong to.

      As my skills are limited I am looking for a quite simple on that I can
      make out of guilded copper and rivet on.

      Any advice or URLs would be a great help!

      Paul
    • wodeford
      ... One thing you need to be aware of. The SCA does not permit registration of kamon or other heraldry that belonged to someone historically important OR is
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 13, 2006
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "men_yoroi" <men_yoroi@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am working on my first suit of armour and would like to display my/a
        > mon on it. Problem is there seem to be very few on google images etc,
        > and I hav no idea what families they belong to.

        One thing you need to be aware of. The SCA does not permit
        registration of kamon or other heraldry that belonged to someone
        historically important OR is already registered to somebody else.
        (This is despite the fact that there is historical precedent in Japan
        for more than one family to use the same kamon.) The SCA also requires
        that your kamon be something that can be described using the
        terminology of European heraldry. For more on this, go here:
        http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html
        http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/mons/

        This site is by no means complete, but it lists the kamon of many
        prominent samurai families.
        http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html

        This one does not associate designs with names - it's merely a design
        archive organized by type (plant, animal, tool, etc.)

        http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/index.htm

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • robertthelost
        Greetings Kamon and Mon Mon: symbol; badge; crest? Kamon: Family symbol? So you could have 2 symbols use? ... I ve found the Kamon for the Yamamoto family,
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 8 6:37 PM
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          Greetings

          Kamon and Mon

          Mon: symbol; badge; crest?

          Kamon: Family symbol?

          So you could have 2 symbols use?

          > One thing you need to be aware of. The SCA does not permit
          > registration of kamon or other heraldry that belonged to someone
          > historically important

          I've found the Kamon for the Yamamoto family, would I not be able to
          use it since it possibly belonged to someone important?
          its at http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html

          > OR is already registered to somebody else.

          I still havent checked this part of it, will do shortly to see if
          anyones grabbed it.

          Also what period did the circle come to be used and what was more
          common during Kamakura period?

          Would I be able to use my name as a Mon and possibly my family name
          with "household" as a kamon? ie. "yamamoto household" but in kanji?

          thank you

          IS
          Yamamoto Atsumori
          DSH East
        • robertthelost
          Greetings Kamon and Mon Mon: symbol; badge; crest? Kamon: Family symbol? So you could have 2 symbols use? ... I ve found the Kamon for the Yamamoto family,
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 8 6:38 PM
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            Greetings

            Kamon and Mon

            Mon: symbol; badge; crest?

            Kamon: Family symbol?

            So you could have 2 symbols use?

            > One thing you need to be aware of. The SCA does not permit
            > registration of kamon or other heraldry that belonged to someone
            > historically important

            I've found the Kamon for the Yamamoto family, would I not be able to
            use it since it possibly belonged to someone important?
            its at http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html

            > OR is already registered to somebody else.

            I still havent checked this part of it, will do shortly to see if
            anyones grabbed it.

            Also what period did the circle come to be used and what was more
            common during Kamakura period?

            Would I be able to use my name as a Mon and possibly my family name
            with "household" as a kamon? ie. "yamamoto household" but in kanji?

            thank you

            IS
            Yamamoto Atsumori
            DSH East
          • wodeford
            ... No, they re the same thing. Please go read this. It s a very good primer on mon and their use in the SCA: http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/mons/ (In the SCA
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 8 6:56 PM
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "robertthelost" <drunken-savage@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Greetings
              >
              > Kamon and Mon
              >
              > Mon: symbol; badge; crest?
              >
              > Kamon: Family symbol?
              >
              > So you could have 2 symbols use?

              No, they're the same thing. Please go read this. It's a very good
              primer on mon and their use in the SCA:
              http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/mons/

              (In the SCA you CAN have two symbols, a device (coat of arms) and a
              personal badge, a practice used in Western heraldry.)

              Here is a really nice website to look at for design ideas. Run it
              through Google Translate first as it's in Japanese:
              http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/index.htm

              While it doesn't list every single possibility, Samurai Archives does
              have a pretty good compendium of mon that were in actual use in period
              and who they belonged to: http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html
              You will see that different families often adopted the same kamon.
              Unfortunately, the SCA does not permit more than one person to use the
              same symbol, so you will have to come up with something that can be
              registered as uniquely yours - because we're all Special Snowflakes. ;-D

              Saionji no Hanae
            • robertthelost
              Greetings ... Yeah I thought they were the same but got confused when I looked up definitions of both and got those results I posted before. thanks for link
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 8 7:24 PM
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                Greetings

                > No, they're the same thing. Please go read this. It's a very good
                > primer on mon and their use in the SCA:
                > http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/mons/

                Yeah I thought they were the same but got confused when I looked up
                definitions of both and got those results I posted before.
                thanks for link read through t quick

                > (In the SCA you CAN have two symbols, a device (coat of arms) and a
                > personal badge, a practice used in Western heraldry.)

                K and this is where the mine/me comes in, correct? Coat of arms
                means "this is mine" and personal badge means "this is me". I know I
                was just reading some of this on the newcomers forum I think.

                > Here is a really nice website to look at for design ideas. Run it
                > through Google Translate first as it's in Japanese:
                > http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/index.htm

                What is this "google translate" you speak of? I was on that site last
                night and will finish it tonight but it was all in Japanese, but I
                still made it through most of it. ohh pretty pictures :)

                > http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html

                Yep found the Yamamoto family one there. bookmarked and everything on
                that one ;)

                > Unfortunately, the SCA does not permit more than one person to use
                > the same symbol, so you will have to come up with something that
                > can be registered as uniquely yours - because we're all Special
                > Snowflakes. ;-D

                Yeah trying to come up with my own. I know it should just be a basic
                one thats why I was curious of just doing the family name with
                household, or what ever might be added to it.

                I saw a flag in "Arms and Armor or the Samurai" by I. Bottomley and
                A.P. Hopson on page150 with a "kamon/Mon" on it that is kanji (I
                belive) to form a circle, thought that would be simple and kind of
                cool to do.

                IS
                Yamamoto Atsumori
                DSH East
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... In this case, they are synonyms. However, kamon tends to be more clear as mon can be written with a bunch of
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 8 7:59 PM
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!
                  > Kamon and Mon
                  In this case, they are synonyms. However, kamon tends to be more
                  clear as mon can be written with a bunch of different kanji which
                  mean different things.
                  > I've found the Kamon for the Yamamoto family, would I not be able to
                  > use it since it possibly belonged to someone important?
                  > its at http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html
                  I'm pretty confident that different families called Yamamoto use
                  different kamon. That is, there is more than one in use by people
                  with identical family names. However, you should not assume that they
                  are related.
                  > Also what period did the circle come to be used and what was more
                  > common during Kamakura period?
                  Putting a circle around things becomes more common the later you get.
                  > \Would I be able to use my name as a Mon and possibly my family name
                  > with "household" as a kamon? ie. "yamamoto household" but in kanji?
                  No. First of all, the College of Arms objects to registering letters &c.
                  Further, people just didn't use their family names as kamon all that
                  much.
                  There are a few rare instances of kanji showing up in kamon, but they
                  are
                  not generally used that way. About the only case for kanji used as kamon
                  involves well frames and the numbers one, two, and ten.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar





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                • robertthelost
                  Greetings K I figured I d check. I have been working on some basic ones takin bit and pieces from ones from the sites that i ve been to but I saw that one in
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 8 8:21 PM
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                    Greetings

                    K I figured I'd check. I have been working on some basic ones takin bit
                    and pieces from ones from the sites that i've been to but I saw that
                    one in the book and thought it was pretty nice.

                    Now could I use something like this for a "makers mark", I made my own
                    bow and enjoy making my own things could I use this as a sig for the
                    things I make
                    http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/sKSRRtpREIB4vlOsH8T_lCrVn2AIK0iCGoeB6g8zvPi
                    d9zQmblq8Zc1sqDJiM1OC8rR49U8JgIvRZKmaTwVB8vFcsJPBTGMCwFPbdNuibXLdu1pvEyO
                    pDv0b/Atsumori%20Juban%20Question/Yamamoto%20sig.JPG

                    wow didnt expext that link to be that long.

                    anyways thank again all

                    Atsumori
                  • robertthelost
                    Sorry that link is messed up I think you can find it in here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Atsumori%20Juban%20Question/ I hope Atsumori
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 8 8:25 PM
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                      Sorry that link is messed up I think
                      you can find it in here

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Atsumori%20Juban%20Question/

                      I hope

                      Atsumori
                    • wodeford
                      ... Reverse that and you ll have it right. ... http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en allows you to plug in either blocks of text or even easier, a webpage
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 8 8:32 PM
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "robertthelost" <drunken-savage@...>
                        wrote:
                        > K and this is where the mine/me comes in, correct? Coat of arms
                        > means "this is mine" and personal badge means "this is me". I know I
                        > was just reading some of this on the newcomers forum I think.
                        Reverse that and you'll have it right.

                        >
                        > > Here is a really nice website to look at for design ideas. Run it
                        > > through Google Translate first as it's in Japanese:
                        > > http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/index.htm
                        >
                        > What is this "google translate" you speak of?
                        http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en allows you to plug in
                        either blocks of text or even easier, a webpage address and select the
                        languages you want to translate from and to. I prefer it to Babelfish,
                        which has a lot of trouble with Japanese. Not being able to read
                        Japanese, I use this one a LOT.

                        > I saw a flag in "Arms and Armor or the Samurai" by I. Bottomley and
                        > A.P. Hopson on page150 with a "kamon/Mon" on it that is kanji (I
                        > belive) to form a circle, thought that would be simple and kind of
                        > cool to do.

                        Unfortunately, you can't do that in the SCA if you want to register
                        it. It has to be something that can be described in Western heraldic
                        jargon.

                        Of course, if you don't care about actually registering it with the
                        College of Heralds....

                        Saionji no Hanae
                      • Elaine Koogler
                        ... Actually, there are two flavors of /mon/.../kamon/, IIRC, is the front /mon /and would be equivalent to a device. /Jomon/, or back /mon, /would be
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 9 4:30 AM
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                          wodeford wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > "robertthelost" <drunken-savage@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Greetings
                          > >
                          > > Kamon and Mon
                          > >
                          > > Mon: symbol; badge; crest?
                          > >
                          > > Kamon: Family symbol?
                          > >
                          > > So you could have 2 symbols use?
                          >
                          > No, they're the same thing. Please go read this. It's a very good
                          > primer on mon and their use in the SCA:
                          > http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/mons/
                          > <http://sca.org/heraldry/laurel/mons/>
                          >
                          > (In the SCA you CAN have two symbols, a device (coat of arms) and a
                          > personal badge, a practice used in Western heraldry.)
                          >
                          > Here is a really nice website to look at for design ideas. Run it
                          > through Google Translate first as it's in Japanese:
                          > http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/index.htm
                          > <http://www.otomiya.com/kamon/index.htm>
                          >
                          > While it doesn't list every single possibility, Samurai Archives does
                          > have a pretty good compendium of mon that were in actual use in period
                          > and who they belonged to: http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html
                          > <http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html>
                          > You will see that different families often adopted the same kamon.
                          > Unfortunately, the SCA does not permit more than one person to use the
                          > same symbol, so you will have to come up with something that can be
                          > registered as uniquely yours - because we're all Special Snowflakes. ;-D
                          >
                          > Saionji no Hanae
                          >
                          >
                          Actually, there are two flavors of /mon/.../kamon/, IIRC, is the "front"
                          /mon /and would be equivalent to a device. /Jomon/, or "back" /mon,
                          /would be equivalent to a badge. That's what I found some years back
                          when researching and submitting my own heraldry.

                          Kiri
                          (former PH of Atlantia)

                          --

                          Elaine Koogler
                          Consultant

                          Dragon's Lair Enterprises

                          Learning is a lifetime journey…growing older merely adds experience to
                          knowledge and wisdom to curiosity.
                          -- C.E. Lawrence
                        • Elaine Koogler
                          Firstly, the device is your personal representation. It says, This is me...I m here. A badge can be used to mark your belongings, and can be used by any in
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 9 4:34 AM
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                            Firstly, the device is your personal representation. It says, "This is
                            me...I'm here." A badge can be used to mark your belongings, and can be
                            used by any in service to you. For example, my apprentices and proteges
                            all wear belts that have my badge (jomon) on the tip of the belt. But
                            I'm the only one who can display my device (kamon).

                            Badges in the SCA can use kanji, but devices cannot. This is actually
                            based on European practice, but applies to Japanese heraldry as well.

                            Kiri
                            (old, tired herald)...

                            robertthelost wrote:
                            >
                            > Greetings
                            >
                            >
                            > K and this is where the mine/me comes in, correct? Coat of arms
                            > means "this is mine" and personal badge means "this is me". I know I
                            > was just reading some of this on the newcomers forum I think.
                            >
                            >
                            > I saw a flag in "Arms and Armor or the Samurai" by I. Bottomley and
                            > A.P. Hopson on page150 with a "kamon/Mon" on it that is kanji (I
                            > belive) to form a circle, thought that would be simple and kind of
                            > cool to do.
                            >
                            > IS
                            > Yamamoto Atsumori
                            > DSH East
                            >
                            >


                            --

                            Elaine Koogler
                            Consultant

                            Dragon's Lair Enterprises

                            Learning is a lifetime journey…growing older merely adds experience to
                            knowledge and wisdom to curiosity.
                            -- C.E. Lawrence
                          • robertthelost
                            Greetings, ... WOW thank you very much this is the best thing i ve learned so far. I just used it on the link that i went through the other night completly in
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 9 4:47 PM
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                              Greetings,


                              > http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en allows you to plug in
                              > either blocks of text or even easier, a webpage address and select the
                              > languages you want to translate from and to. I prefer it to Babelfish,
                              > which has a lot of trouble with Japanese. Not being able to read
                              > Japanese, I use this one a LOT.

                              WOW thank you very much this is the best thing i've learned so far. I
                              just used it on the link that i went through the other night completly
                              in Japanese and now its all in English. That is so cool.

                              Now just have to decide which design I want to use. there are way to
                              many and way to many ways to alter them and make them your own.


                              Thank You Again

                              IS
                              Atsumori
                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I could not get your link to work. However, I want to tell you that Japanese artisans do not, and to the best of my
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 9 6:26 PM
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                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig! I could not get your link to work.
                                However, I want to tell you that Japanese artisans do not,
                                and to the best of my knowledge pretty much did not, use
                                kamon as "makers marks". Japanese artisans sign their
                                works in either of three ways:

                                1) By writing one or another of their names.
                                2) By writing their "kao". (Literally "flower impression". These
                                are kind of a signature glyph and are usually reserved for
                                special works.
                                3) By a seal impression.

                                The closest to what you appear to be looking for are the
                                kamon-like devices affected by merchants during the Edo
                                Period.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar





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                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... 1. You should not use both names. I would suspect that you should use Atsumori by itself. 2. You should consult a
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 9 6:34 PM
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  > Sorry that link is messed up I think
                                  > you can find it in here
                                  >
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Atsumori%20Juban%
                                  > 20Question/

                                  1. You should not use both names. I would suspect that you should use
                                  Atsumori by itself.
                                  2. You should consult a seal dictionary and use the "tensho" version
                                  of the two characters
                                  in Atsumori if you intend to use a seal to make the impressions.
                                  Otherwise, you whould
                                  either learn to draw the characters correctly or devise a kao
                                  for yourself. Incidentally, I
                                  do not as yet have good advise on devising kao as I have not yet
                                  studied them sufficiently.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar





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                                • wodeford
                                  ... Be aware that it s not 100% foolproof. There are instances where a Japanese character or group of characters can have more than one meaning and the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 9 6:37 PM
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                                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "robertthelost" <drunken-savage@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > WOW thank you very much this is the best thing i've learned so far. I
                                    > just used it on the link that i went through the other night completly
                                    > in Japanese and now its all in English. That is so cool.

                                    Be aware that it's not 100% foolproof. There are instances where a
                                    Japanese character or group of characters can have more than one
                                    meaning and the computer will occasionally throw something into your
                                    translation that makes no sense whatsoever.

                                    I will defer to Kiri-sensei's expertise regarding kamon usage as I am
                                    not a herald and she's been doing this a lot longer than I.

                                    Saionji no Hanae
                                    West
                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Kiri hime! Greetings from Solveig! ... Unfortunately, Daijirin 1st edition p. 1196 appears to disagree with you. It gives kamon as a synonym for joumon .
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 9 10:52 PM
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                                      Kiri hime!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!

                                      On Jul 9, 2007, at 7:34 AM, Elaine Koogler wrote:

                                      > Firstly, the device is your personal representation. It says, "This is
                                      > me...I'm here." A badge can be used to mark your belongings, and
                                      > can be
                                      > used by any in service to you. For example, my apprentices and
                                      > proteges
                                      > all wear belts that have my badge (jomon) on the tip of the belt. But
                                      > I'm the only one who can display my device (kamon).

                                      Unfortunately, Daijirin 1st edition p. 1196 appears to disagree with
                                      you.
                                      It gives "kamon" as a synonym for "joumon". There is no "jomon" entry.
                                      Further, the JOU in JOUMON is written with the kanji "sadamaru".
                                      Further their entry for "kamon" p. 508 lists "joumon" as a synonym for
                                      "kamon".

                                      Further, records of actual usage rather typically only show one kamon
                                      being
                                      used. This is the norm in the chronological armorial "Daijirin".
                                      Other collections
                                      do show more usages including battle flags and stuff like that.
                                      Regardless, I
                                      am curious about your source of documentation on this one.

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar





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