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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: First names? (newbie)

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... In wapuro Japanese it is Katou (just a way to deal with the CoA not allowing diacriticals. Maybe they do now, but
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 1, 2006
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > The period I was thinking of is early 1500's, the surname I liked is
      > Kato (with a little line over the o). I

      In "wapuro" Japanese it is Katou (just a way to deal with the CoA not
      allowing diacriticals. Maybe they do now, but they didn't 15 years
      ago. Even so, many fonts still lack an easy way to type vowels with
      macrons. Some modern Japanese write the name as Katoh. Regardless,
      such a name claims to be a cadet family of the Fujiwara even if they
      aren't. During the 1500's women very often had names of the form
      O<theme>. If you watch the Samurai trilogy by Inagaki you will meet a
      few women with this sort of name during the early 1600's.
      Unfortunately, I am in the middle of relocating and my sources are
      about five hours from here at the moment. So, please do not hold my
      feet to the fire over dates and stuff.

      > As for the terms onyomi and kunyomi I have no idea! (total newbie
      > here). Also A'kumi or Aku'mi, I thought it would be spelled without
      > any '. I have no problem being "evil" however!

      ONYOMI are "Chinese" reading like "ICHI" while kunyomi are native
      readings like "hitotsu".

      > Someone wrote to me offline with more information (many thanks) and
      > recommended a book written by yourself; how might I acquire such a
      > book?

      Send email to alban@...

      > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
      > appreciate any and all help given. Off topic, where might I find
      > pictures or descriptions on making one of those ladies hats with the
      > veils?

      Enthusiasm is one of the most treasured features of those who are
      learning.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
    • wodeford
      ... Kato-hime, have you been here yet? It includes a discussion of the O- name forms, which may give you some ideas, assuming you like that form.
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 1, 2006
        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
        wrote:
        > During the 1500's women very often had names of the form
        > O<theme>. If you watch the Samurai trilogy by Inagaki you will meet a
        > few women with this sort of name during the early 1600's.
        > Unfortunately, I am in the middle of relocating and my sources are
        > about five hours from here at the moment. So, please do not hold my
        > feet to the fire over dates and stuff.

        Kato-hime, have you been here yet? It includes a discussion of the "O-
        " name forms, which may give you some ideas, assuming you like that form.
        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html

        > I have no problem being "evil" however!
        Yes, but there's no need to advertise. ;-> One can be far more evil
        and get away with it if everyone thinks you're sweet and harmless.

        > > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
        > > appreciate any and all help given.
        Baby steps are the most important ones one ever takes. Enjoy the journey!
        Be sure to check out the Links and Files sections at
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/ for all sorts of useful resources.

        > Off topic, where might I find pictures or descriptions on making one
        > of those ladies hats with the veils?
        Doh! When I responded earlier, I forgot I'd posted info on my
        ichime-gasa over on the Tousando board. (I plead burnout - it's
        payroll day and I've been staring at a lot of numbers.) You can view
        the thread here:
        http://tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=garb&action=display&thread=1149457918

        http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/7.htm shows their version
        of a traveling hat.

        Saionji no Hanae
        West Kingdom
      • mistresschief
        First I must say thank you so much to everyone for all your help! It has been most appreciated and enlightening. I was told when I first joined the SCA that
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 3, 2006
          First I must say thank you so much to everyone for all your help! It
          has been most appreciated and enlightening. I was told when I first
          joined the SCA that you could only be a culture (Japanese or
          otherwise) after it had first contact with Europeans. I have since
          learned (thanks to all of you) that this is not so! Perfect, as I
          really like the 1500ish early time period.

          So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my part,
          would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how would
          I pronounce the Suiren part?).

          On the hat front, I recently purchased a hat that might do for a
          travelling hat. I put the pictures in the photos section under "my
          hat". Do you think it will work? Also, any rules on how many panels or
          how to attach them? What exactly are the dangly cords for and how
          would I attach those? I have a friend that does kumahimo (please
          forgive any spelling mistakes!) that could work as well.

          Thank you again for your help!




          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@>
          > wrote:
          > > During the 1500's women very often had names of the form
          > > O<theme>. If you watch the Samurai trilogy by Inagaki you will
          meet a
          > > few women with this sort of name during the early 1600's.
          > > Unfortunately, I am in the middle of relocating and my sources are
          > > about five hours from here at the moment. So, please do not hold my
          > > feet to the fire over dates and stuff.
          >
          > Kato-hime, have you been here yet? It includes a discussion of the "O-
          > " name forms, which may give you some ideas, assuming you like that
          form.
          > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html
          >
          > > I have no problem being "evil" however!
          > Yes, but there's no need to advertise. ;-> One can be far more evil
          > and get away with it if everyone thinks you're sweet and harmless.
          >
          > > > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
          > > > appreciate any and all help given.
          > Baby steps are the most important ones one ever takes. Enjoy the
          journey!
          > Be sure to check out the Links and Files sections at
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/ for all sorts of useful
          resources.
          >
          > > Off topic, where might I find pictures or descriptions on making one
          > > of those ladies hats with the veils?
          > Doh! When I responded earlier, I forgot I'd posted info on my
          > ichime-gasa over on the Tousando board. (I plead burnout - it's
          > payroll day and I've been staring at a lot of numbers.) You can view
          > the thread here:
          >
          http://tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=garb&action=display&thread=1149457918
          >
          > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/7.htm shows their version
          > of a traveling hat.
          >
          > Saionji no Hanae
          > West Kingdom
          >
        • mistresschief
          Oops! It s actually under hat pictues . I understand that the hat diameter should be wider than your shoulders (this one is about a centimeter less wide) but
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 3, 2006
            Oops! It's actually under "hat pictues". I understand that the hat
            diameter should be wider than your shoulders (this one is about a
            centimeter less wide) but I have really wide shoulders so even that
            really nice and expensive ichime gasa wouldn't be wide enough. I could
            still make it work though, right?

            Thanks again!

            Monika


            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:
            >
            > First I must say thank you so much to everyone for all your help! It
            > has been most appreciated and enlightening. I was told when I first
            > joined the SCA that you could only be a culture (Japanese or
            > otherwise) after it had first contact with Europeans. I have since
            > learned (thanks to all of you) that this is not so! Perfect, as I
            > really like the 1500ish early time period.
            >
            > So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my part,
            > would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how would
            > I pronounce the Suiren part?).
            >
            > On the hat front, I recently purchased a hat that might do for a
            > travelling hat. I put the pictures in the photos section under "my
            > hat". Do you think it will work? Also, any rules on how many panels or
            > how to attach them? What exactly are the dangly cords for and how
            > would I attach those? I have a friend that does kumahimo (please
            > forgive any spelling mistakes!) that could work as well.
            >
            > Thank you again for your help!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@>
            > > wrote:
            > > > During the 1500's women very often had names of the form
            > > > O<theme>. If you watch the Samurai trilogy by Inagaki you will
            > meet a
            > > > few women with this sort of name during the early 1600's.
            > > > Unfortunately, I am in the middle of relocating and my sources are
            > > > about five hours from here at the moment. So, please do not hold
            my
            > > > feet to the fire over dates and stuff.
            > >
            > > Kato-hime, have you been here yet? It includes a discussion of the "O-
            > > " name forms, which may give you some ideas, assuming you like that
            > form.
            > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html
            > >
            > > > I have no problem being "evil" however!
            > > Yes, but there's no need to advertise. ;-> One can be far more evil
            > > and get away with it if everyone thinks you're sweet and harmless.
            > >
            > > > > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
            > > > > appreciate any and all help given.
            > > Baby steps are the most important ones one ever takes. Enjoy the
            > journey!
            > > Be sure to check out the Links and Files sections at
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/ for all sorts of useful
            > resources.
            > >
            > > > Off topic, where might I find pictures or descriptions on making one
            > > > of those ladies hats with the veils?
            > > Doh! When I responded earlier, I forgot I'd posted info on my
            > > ichime-gasa over on the Tousando board. (I plead burnout - it's
            > > payroll day and I've been staring at a lot of numbers.) You can view
            > > the thread here:
            > >
            >
            http://tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=garb&action=display&thread=1149457918
            > >
            > > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/7.htm shows their version
            > > of a traveling hat.
            > >
            > > Saionji no Hanae
            > > West Kingdom
            > >
            >
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Sui is pronounced SUE-EE as in calling pigs. Ren is pronounced as in Ren & Stimpy. However, these are both ON-YOMI
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 3, 2006
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my part,
              > would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how would
              > I pronounce the Suiren part?).

              Sui is pronounced SUE-EE as in calling pigs. Ren is pronounced as in
              Ren & Stimpy.
              However, these are both ON-YOMI readings. Are you planning on being a
              nun or something?

              Your humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
            • wodeford
              ... It looks awfully small, given your description. Here s a shot of me in my old one at www.wodefordhall.com/windyday.jpg. THAT one looks awfully small, which
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 3, 2006
                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:
                > On the hat front, I recently purchased a hat that might do for a
                > travelling hat. I put the pictures in the photos section under "my
                > hat". Do you think it will work?

                It looks awfully small, given your description. Here's a shot of me in
                my old one at www.wodefordhall.com/windyday.jpg. THAT one looks
                awfully small, which is why I pounced on the newer one I found at the
                flea market.

                I generally do four equal sided panels. They need to open in the
                front, but the other three I stitch together part way down to prevent
                tangling. Sew the panels into the brim of the hat or use straight pins
                slid into the weave of the hat to attach them. Do the same with the
                "sash cords." AFAIK they are decorative. 3/8" cotton rope is what I
                used for mine.

                One option you might try which could work better for you than the
                veiled hat would be to wear the hat you have on top of a sheer kosode
                draped over your head. Not a great photo, but Lady Wakasa does this in
                the film Ugetsu.
                http://www.cinela.com/schedule/IMG/ugetsu.jpg

                Hope this is helpful.
                Saionji no Hanae, West
              • mistresschief
                Hmmmmm.... I guess I just don t get the difference between onyomi and the other one clearly enough. Many people have suggested I go to this site:
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 4, 2006
                  Hmmmmm....

                  I guess I just don't get the difference between onyomi and the other
                  one clearly enough. Many people have suggested I go to this site:

                  http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html

                  It all sounded plausible, which is how I figured out the alternative
                  name. Are you saying that this information is more intended for
                  Chinese (onyomi) rather than Japanese? And that the Chinese version is
                  more apt for nuns? It would appear that your book would seem the only
                  accurate information for Japanese names out there; at this time
                  however I really can't afford it. I will try my local library to see
                  if they have it (doubtful, but you never know). If you could suggest
                  an alternative online wealth of information I would most appreciate it!

                  Alas, I have to agree that my hat would appear to be too small. I'll
                  have to keep looking, perhaps check out a flea market or garage sale
                  if I ever get a weekend off!

                  Thanks again for all your help!



                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Noble Cousin!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                  >
                  > > So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my part,
                  > > would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how would
                  > > I pronounce the Suiren part?).
                  >
                  > Sui is pronounced SUE-EE as in calling pigs. Ren is pronounced as in
                  > Ren & Stimpy.
                  > However, these are both ON-YOMI readings. Are you planning on being a
                  > nun or something?
                  >
                  > Your humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar
                  >
                • mistresschief
                  I m assuming that most people are at Pennsic at the moment (deep sigh).....wish I was! Damn mundane life for interfering with my social life! I did a bit more
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 13, 2006
                    I'm assuming that most people are at Pennsic at the moment (deep
                    sigh).....wish I was! Damn mundane life for interfering with my social
                    life!

                    I did a bit more research, so humbly asking if the name Katou O -
                    Tatsuko would be better?

                    I think in regards to the hat I'm going to have to bite the bullet and
                    order the biggest gasa hat I can find from Japan; I really like the
                    ichime gasa but it would have to be at 10 cm wider to be wider than my
                    shoulders!

                    Another question I have is about footwear. I have a very nice pair of
                    lacquered geta; according to a kimono book I have geta are more casual
                    and zori (the flat ones) are more formal. Is this true in the medieval
                    time period as well, or just now?

                    Hope you are all enjoying yourselves at Pennsic or at home as the case
                    may be. Thanks again for all your help!

                    Monika


                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hmmmmm....
                    >
                    > I guess I just don't get the difference between onyomi and the other
                    > one clearly enough. Many people have suggested I go to this site:
                    >
                    > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html
                    >
                    > It all sounded plausible, which is how I figured out the alternative
                    > name. Are you saying that this information is more intended for
                    > Chinese (onyomi) rather than Japanese? And that the Chinese version is
                    > more apt for nuns? It would appear that your book would seem the only
                    > accurate information for Japanese names out there; at this time
                    > however I really can't afford it. I will try my local library to see
                    > if they have it (doubtful, but you never know). If you could suggest
                    > an alternative online wealth of information I would most appreciate it!
                    >
                    > Alas, I have to agree that my hat would appear to be too small. I'll
                    > have to keep looking, perhaps check out a flea market or garage sale
                    > if I ever get a weekend off!
                    >
                    > Thanks again for all your help!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Noble Cousin!
                    > >
                    > > Greetings from Solveig!
                    > >
                    > > > So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my
                    part,
                    > > > would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how
                    would
                    > > > I pronounce the Suiren part?).
                    > >
                    > > Sui is pronounced SUE-EE as in calling pigs. Ren is pronounced as in
                    > > Ren & Stimpy.
                    > > However, these are both ON-YOMI readings. Are you planning on
                    being a
                    > > nun or something?
                    > >
                    > > Your humble Servant
                    > > Solveig Throndardottir
                    > > Amateur Scholar
                    > >
                    >
                  • wodeford
                    ... I think (and I will happily defer to our onomasticists) that it would be either Tatsuko or O-tatsu, but not both. ... I hear that. Try the Warring States
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 13, 2006
                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:
                      > I did a bit more research, so humbly asking if the name Katou O -
                      > Tatsuko would be better?

                      I think (and I will happily defer to our onomasticists) that it would
                      be either Tatsuko or O-tatsu, but not both.

                      > I think in regards to the hat I'm going to have to bite the bullet
                      > and order the biggest gasa hat I can find from Japan; I really like
                      > the ichime gasa but it would have to be at 10 cm wider to be wider
                      > than my shoulders!

                      I hear that. Try the "Warring States" page here:
                      http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/index.html

                      > Another question I have is about footwear. I have a very nice pair of
                      > lacquered geta; according to a kimono book I have geta are more casual
                      > and zori (the flat ones) are more formal. Is this true in the medieval
                      > time period as well, or just now?

                      A caveat about modern kimono references - they're modern. ;-> If you
                      want to know what people wear in period, look at artwork or if you're
                      lucky surviving examples from the period you're researching.

                      Geta are foul weather gear, specifically designed for walking in mud,
                      hence the ha (stilts). They would also be worn to and from the baths.
                      The bath-house connection is why they're matched with yukata (cotton
                      bathrobes) for casual wear in the modern context, usually for summer
                      festivals.

                      Period zori look nothing like the vinyl wedgie things sold these days
                      for women as dress shoes. They would have been made of rice straw and
                      look like this:
                      http://web-japan.org/nipponia/nipponia21/images/topic/25_5.jpg

                      You can sometimes find them as billed as waraji zori. A reasonable
                      alternative are setta or tatami zori.

                      As for sizing, they should be what you'd think is too small for you.
                      If your heel dangles off the back by a couple of cm, that's about
                      right. More than that will be uncomfortable, less may have you getting
                      your hems caught in your zori (or geta).

                      Saionji no Hanae
                      West Kingdom
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