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Re: First names? (newbie)

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  • mistresschief
    Greetings and thanks! The period I was thinking of is early 1500 s, the surname I liked is Kato (with a little line over the o). I realized the surname or
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 1, 2006
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      Greetings and thanks!

      The period I was thinking of is early 1500's, the surname I liked is
      Kato (with a little line over the o). I realized the surname or family
      name is first and the "first name" is second (just figured it would be
      easier to describe it thusly).

      As for the terms onyomi and kunyomi I have no idea! (total newbie
      here). Also A'kumi or Aku'mi, I thought it would be spelled without
      any '. I have no problem being "evil" however!

      Someone wrote to me offline with more information (many thanks) and
      recommended a book written by yourself; how might I acquire such a book?

      The whole reason I picked a Japanese persona was that I didn't want to
      be one of the massive hoardes of Celts, Vikings, Normans, etc., plus I
      absolutely adore all things Japanese (how can you NOT love the garb
      and everything else?).

      I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
      appreciate any and all help given. Off topic, where might I find
      pictures or descriptions on making one of those ladies hats with the
      veils?

      Again, I thank you and wish you a lovely day!


      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Noble Cousin!
      >
      > Greetings from Solveig!
      >
      > > Hello all! I am fairly new to the SCA and have decided on a Japanese
      > > persona. I have figured out the surname part with much help from a
      > > friend,
      >
      > That is not necessarily as easy as your friend may think. It depends
      > entirely upon which period you want to be from.
      >
      > > but a first name is more difficult to document (apparently).
      >
      > Well. First of all it isn't a "first name": as it doesn't come first.
      >
      > > As far as I can tell from my small amount of research, a female name
      > > is usually a name from nature (like maple, pine, etc.) with different
      > > endings attached like "mi" "me" etc. Is this correct?
      >
      > Well sort of. Most Japanese female names consist of a <theme> with
      > either a prefix or suffix depending upon the period.
      >
      > > And would I be correct in assuming that I can basically use any
      > > Japanese word used at
      > > the time with such an ending tacked on?
      >
      > Not a tremendously good idea. Some words are just more auspicious
      > than others. Also, there is a big distinction in Japanese between
      > strictly literary words and words which are actually spoken. Finally,
      > there is a distinction between onyomi (Chinese style) and kunyomi
      > (Japanese style) words.
      >
      > > Ideally I would like to use
      > > the name "Akumi". Any help you can provide would be most appreciated.
      > > I thank you all in advance for your help and feedback!
      >
      > Why? First of all are you trying to choose Aku'mi or A'kumi ??
      > Incidentally, I am sure that -me names are common during the Nara and
      > Heian periods, but I do not recall -mi names. Are you actually
      > interested in "aku" = "evil" ?? AKU is (as I recall) an ONYOMI
      > reading which would make it a bit unusual. Not to mention the meaning
      > which while it might be used for the name of a young child, just
      > doesn't make it for an adult.
      >
      > If you are interested in one of the "aku" verbs, then it is likely to
      > show up as "aki"+<ending> in names. There is also the dithematic 阿
      > 久 which is rather interesting.
      >
      > Your Humble Servant
      > Solveig Throndardottir
      > Amateur Scholar
      >
    • wodeford
      ... Email Ted Eisenstein at alban AT socket DOT net and find out if the ... I need to get pictures of mine with the veil on. I acquired the hat at a flea
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 1, 2006
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:

        > Someone wrote to me offline with more information (many thanks) and
        > recommended a book written by yourself; how might I acquire such a book?

        Email Ted Eisenstein at alban AT socket DOT net and find out if the
        price or address has changed since he sent me this two years ago:

        > Potboiler Press, for $42.50 (which includes shipping).
        > The address is
        > Ted Eisenstein
        > PO Box 30171
        > Columbia, MO 65205

        > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
        > appreciate any and all help given. Off topic, where might I find
        > pictures or descriptions on making one of those ladies hats with the
        > veils?

        I need to get pictures of mine with the veil on. I acquired the hat at
        a flea market. The photos at the album below show the attachment of
        the atadamai (chin harness). I used thick cotton upholstery welt cord
        commonly used for upholstery piping, covered it in fabric, sewed it
        into the appropriate shape, then stitched it onto the hat through
        existing holes in the hat with buttonhole thread.
        http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/wodeford/album?.dir=1b0bscd&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos
      • wodeford
        Apologies to the list for that unsigned post! Saionji no Hanae,West Kingdom
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 1, 2006
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          Apologies to the list for that unsigned post!

          Saionji no Hanae,West Kingdom
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... In wapuro Japanese it is Katou (just a way to deal with the CoA not allowing diacriticals. Maybe they do now, but
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 1, 2006
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > The period I was thinking of is early 1500's, the surname I liked is
            > Kato (with a little line over the o). I

            In "wapuro" Japanese it is Katou (just a way to deal with the CoA not
            allowing diacriticals. Maybe they do now, but they didn't 15 years
            ago. Even so, many fonts still lack an easy way to type vowels with
            macrons. Some modern Japanese write the name as Katoh. Regardless,
            such a name claims to be a cadet family of the Fujiwara even if they
            aren't. During the 1500's women very often had names of the form
            O<theme>. If you watch the Samurai trilogy by Inagaki you will meet a
            few women with this sort of name during the early 1600's.
            Unfortunately, I am in the middle of relocating and my sources are
            about five hours from here at the moment. So, please do not hold my
            feet to the fire over dates and stuff.

            > As for the terms onyomi and kunyomi I have no idea! (total newbie
            > here). Also A'kumi or Aku'mi, I thought it would be spelled without
            > any '. I have no problem being "evil" however!

            ONYOMI are "Chinese" reading like "ICHI" while kunyomi are native
            readings like "hitotsu".

            > Someone wrote to me offline with more information (many thanks) and
            > recommended a book written by yourself; how might I acquire such a
            > book?

            Send email to alban@...

            > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
            > appreciate any and all help given. Off topic, where might I find
            > pictures or descriptions on making one of those ladies hats with the
            > veils?

            Enthusiasm is one of the most treasured features of those who are
            learning.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • wodeford
            ... Kato-hime, have you been here yet? It includes a discussion of the O- name forms, which may give you some ideas, assuming you like that form.
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 1, 2006
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
              wrote:
              > During the 1500's women very often had names of the form
              > O<theme>. If you watch the Samurai trilogy by Inagaki you will meet a
              > few women with this sort of name during the early 1600's.
              > Unfortunately, I am in the middle of relocating and my sources are
              > about five hours from here at the moment. So, please do not hold my
              > feet to the fire over dates and stuff.

              Kato-hime, have you been here yet? It includes a discussion of the "O-
              " name forms, which may give you some ideas, assuming you like that form.
              http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html

              > I have no problem being "evil" however!
              Yes, but there's no need to advertise. ;-> One can be far more evil
              and get away with it if everyone thinks you're sweet and harmless.

              > > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
              > > appreciate any and all help given.
              Baby steps are the most important ones one ever takes. Enjoy the journey!
              Be sure to check out the Links and Files sections at
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/ for all sorts of useful resources.

              > Off topic, where might I find pictures or descriptions on making one
              > of those ladies hats with the veils?
              Doh! When I responded earlier, I forgot I'd posted info on my
              ichime-gasa over on the Tousando board. (I plead burnout - it's
              payroll day and I've been staring at a lot of numbers.) You can view
              the thread here:
              http://tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=garb&action=display&thread=1149457918

              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/7.htm shows their version
              of a traveling hat.

              Saionji no Hanae
              West Kingdom
            • mistresschief
              First I must say thank you so much to everyone for all your help! It has been most appreciated and enlightening. I was told when I first joined the SCA that
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 3, 2006
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                First I must say thank you so much to everyone for all your help! It
                has been most appreciated and enlightening. I was told when I first
                joined the SCA that you could only be a culture (Japanese or
                otherwise) after it had first contact with Europeans. I have since
                learned (thanks to all of you) that this is not so! Perfect, as I
                really like the 1500ish early time period.

                So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my part,
                would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how would
                I pronounce the Suiren part?).

                On the hat front, I recently purchased a hat that might do for a
                travelling hat. I put the pictures in the photos section under "my
                hat". Do you think it will work? Also, any rules on how many panels or
                how to attach them? What exactly are the dangly cords for and how
                would I attach those? I have a friend that does kumahimo (please
                forgive any spelling mistakes!) that could work as well.

                Thank you again for your help!




                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@>
                > wrote:
                > > During the 1500's women very often had names of the form
                > > O<theme>. If you watch the Samurai trilogy by Inagaki you will
                meet a
                > > few women with this sort of name during the early 1600's.
                > > Unfortunately, I am in the middle of relocating and my sources are
                > > about five hours from here at the moment. So, please do not hold my
                > > feet to the fire over dates and stuff.
                >
                > Kato-hime, have you been here yet? It includes a discussion of the "O-
                > " name forms, which may give you some ideas, assuming you like that
                form.
                > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html
                >
                > > I have no problem being "evil" however!
                > Yes, but there's no need to advertise. ;-> One can be far more evil
                > and get away with it if everyone thinks you're sweet and harmless.
                >
                > > > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
                > > > appreciate any and all help given.
                > Baby steps are the most important ones one ever takes. Enjoy the
                journey!
                > Be sure to check out the Links and Files sections at
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/ for all sorts of useful
                resources.
                >
                > > Off topic, where might I find pictures or descriptions on making one
                > > of those ladies hats with the veils?
                > Doh! When I responded earlier, I forgot I'd posted info on my
                > ichime-gasa over on the Tousando board. (I plead burnout - it's
                > payroll day and I've been staring at a lot of numbers.) You can view
                > the thread here:
                >
                http://tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=garb&action=display&thread=1149457918
                >
                > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/7.htm shows their version
                > of a traveling hat.
                >
                > Saionji no Hanae
                > West Kingdom
                >
              • mistresschief
                Oops! It s actually under hat pictues . I understand that the hat diameter should be wider than your shoulders (this one is about a centimeter less wide) but
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 3, 2006
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                  Oops! It's actually under "hat pictues". I understand that the hat
                  diameter should be wider than your shoulders (this one is about a
                  centimeter less wide) but I have really wide shoulders so even that
                  really nice and expensive ichime gasa wouldn't be wide enough. I could
                  still make it work though, right?

                  Thanks again!

                  Monika


                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > First I must say thank you so much to everyone for all your help! It
                  > has been most appreciated and enlightening. I was told when I first
                  > joined the SCA that you could only be a culture (Japanese or
                  > otherwise) after it had first contact with Europeans. I have since
                  > learned (thanks to all of you) that this is not so! Perfect, as I
                  > really like the 1500ish early time period.
                  >
                  > So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my part,
                  > would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how would
                  > I pronounce the Suiren part?).
                  >
                  > On the hat front, I recently purchased a hat that might do for a
                  > travelling hat. I put the pictures in the photos section under "my
                  > hat". Do you think it will work? Also, any rules on how many panels or
                  > how to attach them? What exactly are the dangly cords for and how
                  > would I attach those? I have a friend that does kumahimo (please
                  > forgive any spelling mistakes!) that could work as well.
                  >
                  > Thank you again for your help!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > During the 1500's women very often had names of the form
                  > > > O<theme>. If you watch the Samurai trilogy by Inagaki you will
                  > meet a
                  > > > few women with this sort of name during the early 1600's.
                  > > > Unfortunately, I am in the middle of relocating and my sources are
                  > > > about five hours from here at the moment. So, please do not hold
                  my
                  > > > feet to the fire over dates and stuff.
                  > >
                  > > Kato-hime, have you been here yet? It includes a discussion of the "O-
                  > > " name forms, which may give you some ideas, assuming you like that
                  > form.
                  > > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html
                  > >
                  > > > I have no problem being "evil" however!
                  > > Yes, but there's no need to advertise. ;-> One can be far more evil
                  > > and get away with it if everyone thinks you're sweet and harmless.
                  > >
                  > > > > I ask you all for patience for my ignorance in this matter and
                  > > > > appreciate any and all help given.
                  > > Baby steps are the most important ones one ever takes. Enjoy the
                  > journey!
                  > > Be sure to check out the Links and Files sections at
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/ for all sorts of useful
                  > resources.
                  > >
                  > > > Off topic, where might I find pictures or descriptions on making one
                  > > > of those ladies hats with the veils?
                  > > Doh! When I responded earlier, I forgot I'd posted info on my
                  > > ichime-gasa over on the Tousando board. (I plead burnout - it's
                  > > payroll day and I've been staring at a lot of numbers.) You can view
                  > > the thread here:
                  > >
                  >
                  http://tousando.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=garb&action=display&thread=1149457918
                  > >
                  > > http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/7.htm shows their version
                  > > of a traveling hat.
                  > >
                  > > Saionji no Hanae
                  > > West Kingdom
                  > >
                  >
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Sui is pronounced SUE-EE as in calling pigs. Ren is pronounced as in Ren & Stimpy. However, these are both ON-YOMI
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 3, 2006
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my part,
                    > would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how would
                    > I pronounce the Suiren part?).

                    Sui is pronounced SUE-EE as in calling pigs. Ren is pronounced as in
                    Ren & Stimpy.
                    However, these are both ON-YOMI readings. Are you planning on being a
                    nun or something?

                    Your humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar
                  • wodeford
                    ... It looks awfully small, given your description. Here s a shot of me in my old one at www.wodefordhall.com/windyday.jpg. THAT one looks awfully small, which
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 3, 2006
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                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:
                      > On the hat front, I recently purchased a hat that might do for a
                      > travelling hat. I put the pictures in the photos section under "my
                      > hat". Do you think it will work?

                      It looks awfully small, given your description. Here's a shot of me in
                      my old one at www.wodefordhall.com/windyday.jpg. THAT one looks
                      awfully small, which is why I pounced on the newer one I found at the
                      flea market.

                      I generally do four equal sided panels. They need to open in the
                      front, but the other three I stitch together part way down to prevent
                      tangling. Sew the panels into the brim of the hat or use straight pins
                      slid into the weave of the hat to attach them. Do the same with the
                      "sash cords." AFAIK they are decorative. 3/8" cotton rope is what I
                      used for mine.

                      One option you might try which could work better for you than the
                      veiled hat would be to wear the hat you have on top of a sheer kosode
                      draped over your head. Not a great photo, but Lady Wakasa does this in
                      the film Ugetsu.
                      http://www.cinela.com/schedule/IMG/ugetsu.jpg

                      Hope this is helpful.
                      Saionji no Hanae, West
                    • mistresschief
                      Hmmmmm.... I guess I just don t get the difference between onyomi and the other one clearly enough. Many people have suggested I go to this site:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 4, 2006
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                        Hmmmmm....

                        I guess I just don't get the difference between onyomi and the other
                        one clearly enough. Many people have suggested I go to this site:

                        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html

                        It all sounded plausible, which is how I figured out the alternative
                        name. Are you saying that this information is more intended for
                        Chinese (onyomi) rather than Japanese? And that the Chinese version is
                        more apt for nuns? It would appear that your book would seem the only
                        accurate information for Japanese names out there; at this time
                        however I really can't afford it. I will try my local library to see
                        if they have it (doubtful, but you never know). If you could suggest
                        an alternative online wealth of information I would most appreciate it!

                        Alas, I have to agree that my hat would appear to be too small. I'll
                        have to keep looking, perhaps check out a flea market or garage sale
                        if I ever get a weekend off!

                        Thanks again for all your help!



                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Noble Cousin!
                        >
                        > Greetings from Solveig!
                        >
                        > > So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my part,
                        > > would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how would
                        > > I pronounce the Suiren part?).
                        >
                        > Sui is pronounced SUE-EE as in calling pigs. Ren is pronounced as in
                        > Ren & Stimpy.
                        > However, these are both ON-YOMI readings. Are you planning on being a
                        > nun or something?
                        >
                        > Your humble Servant
                        > Solveig Throndardottir
                        > Amateur Scholar
                        >
                      • mistresschief
                        I m assuming that most people are at Pennsic at the moment (deep sigh).....wish I was! Damn mundane life for interfering with my social life! I did a bit more
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 13, 2006
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                          I'm assuming that most people are at Pennsic at the moment (deep
                          sigh).....wish I was! Damn mundane life for interfering with my social
                          life!

                          I did a bit more research, so humbly asking if the name Katou O -
                          Tatsuko would be better?

                          I think in regards to the hat I'm going to have to bite the bullet and
                          order the biggest gasa hat I can find from Japan; I really like the
                          ichime gasa but it would have to be at 10 cm wider to be wider than my
                          shoulders!

                          Another question I have is about footwear. I have a very nice pair of
                          lacquered geta; according to a kimono book I have geta are more casual
                          and zori (the flat ones) are more formal. Is this true in the medieval
                          time period as well, or just now?

                          Hope you are all enjoying yourselves at Pennsic or at home as the case
                          may be. Thanks again for all your help!

                          Monika


                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hmmmmm....
                          >
                          > I guess I just don't get the difference between onyomi and the other
                          > one clearly enough. Many people have suggested I go to this site:
                          >
                          > http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html
                          >
                          > It all sounded plausible, which is how I figured out the alternative
                          > name. Are you saying that this information is more intended for
                          > Chinese (onyomi) rather than Japanese? And that the Chinese version is
                          > more apt for nuns? It would appear that your book would seem the only
                          > accurate information for Japanese names out there; at this time
                          > however I really can't afford it. I will try my local library to see
                          > if they have it (doubtful, but you never know). If you could suggest
                          > an alternative online wealth of information I would most appreciate it!
                          >
                          > Alas, I have to agree that my hat would appear to be too small. I'll
                          > have to keep looking, perhaps check out a flea market or garage sale
                          > if I ever get a weekend off!
                          >
                          > Thanks again for all your help!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Noble Cousin!
                          > >
                          > > Greetings from Solveig!
                          > >
                          > > > So, with all this help and insight, and some more research on my
                          part,
                          > > > would a better name for me be Matsushima O-suiren? (and just how
                          would
                          > > > I pronounce the Suiren part?).
                          > >
                          > > Sui is pronounced SUE-EE as in calling pigs. Ren is pronounced as in
                          > > Ren & Stimpy.
                          > > However, these are both ON-YOMI readings. Are you planning on
                          being a
                          > > nun or something?
                          > >
                          > > Your humble Servant
                          > > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > > Amateur Scholar
                          > >
                          >
                        • wodeford
                          ... I think (and I will happily defer to our onomasticists) that it would be either Tatsuko or O-tatsu, but not both. ... I hear that. Try the Warring States
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 13, 2006
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "mistresschief" <mistresschief@...> wrote:
                            > I did a bit more research, so humbly asking if the name Katou O -
                            > Tatsuko would be better?

                            I think (and I will happily defer to our onomasticists) that it would
                            be either Tatsuko or O-tatsu, but not both.

                            > I think in regards to the hat I'm going to have to bite the bullet
                            > and order the biggest gasa hat I can find from Japan; I really like
                            > the ichime gasa but it would have to be at 10 cm wider to be wider
                            > than my shoulders!

                            I hear that. Try the "Warring States" page here:
                            http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/index.html

                            > Another question I have is about footwear. I have a very nice pair of
                            > lacquered geta; according to a kimono book I have geta are more casual
                            > and zori (the flat ones) are more formal. Is this true in the medieval
                            > time period as well, or just now?

                            A caveat about modern kimono references - they're modern. ;-> If you
                            want to know what people wear in period, look at artwork or if you're
                            lucky surviving examples from the period you're researching.

                            Geta are foul weather gear, specifically designed for walking in mud,
                            hence the ha (stilts). They would also be worn to and from the baths.
                            The bath-house connection is why they're matched with yukata (cotton
                            bathrobes) for casual wear in the modern context, usually for summer
                            festivals.

                            Period zori look nothing like the vinyl wedgie things sold these days
                            for women as dress shoes. They would have been made of rice straw and
                            look like this:
                            http://web-japan.org/nipponia/nipponia21/images/topic/25_5.jpg

                            You can sometimes find them as billed as waraji zori. A reasonable
                            alternative are setta or tatami zori.

                            As for sizing, they should be what you'd think is too small for you.
                            If your heel dangles off the back by a couple of cm, that's about
                            right. More than that will be uncomfortable, less may have you getting
                            your hems caught in your zori (or geta).

                            Saionji no Hanae
                            West Kingdom
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