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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon and law and names oh my

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  • Joshua Badgley
    ... Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation society
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
      On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, elmar schmeisser wrote:

      > --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
      > ...
      > > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
      > Western
      > > European society...
      >
      > Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
      > in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
      > to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
      > modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
      > written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
      > was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
      > of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
      > among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...
      >
      Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at
      least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation
      society focused on Western Europe before the 1600s. That is what it is
      being represented as. For instance, in "Life in the Current Middle
      Ages" <http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html> it says:

      "The avowed purpose of the SCA is the study and recreation of the European
      Middle Ages, its crafts, sciences, arts, traditions, literature,
      etc. The SCA "period" is defined to be Western civilization before 1600
      AD, concentrating on the Western European High Middle Ages."

      People are advertising this to outsiders as a society dedicated to the
      study and recreation of the European Middle Ages and so I find it not at
      all surprising that, new members especially, expect to find European
      history rather than Asian.

      I agree, however, that the current society, while incorporating elements
      of re-creation and research, is still based more on this idea of the
      'Dream'. If you want to do hard core research and outfit yourself for an
      army in Mediaeval Germany with a whole army of landsknecht at your side,
      there are other organizations that are more geared towards that
      pursuit. If you want to be a part of an organization of friendly,
      similarly interested people who like to beat on you with sticks... well,
      there are some other organizations out there, but I prefer the Society,
      myself.

      I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this can
      raise many different feelings in people. While I think that discussing
      our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in the
      Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or isn't
      might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll try to
      shut up now.


      -Godric Logan/Ii <Daredare>
    • Kass McGann
      ... can ... discussing ... the ... isn t ... try to ... Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When the SCA started, it was a theme
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
        > I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this
        can
        > raise many different feelings in people. While I think that
        discussing
        > our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in
        the
        > Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or
        isn't
        > might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll
        try to
        > shut up now.

        Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When
        the SCA started, it was a theme party. Today, it is something a bit
        different from what began back in the 60s in Berkeley. Some people
        in our Society are making high-level replicas and doing some stunning
        experimental archeology. Others are wearing sweatpants and T-shirt
        under their plastic armour.

        My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I can't
        be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live without
        Lady Fujiwara. But if they come down with that ruling, then they
        have to outlaw pre-600 personae and post-1600 personae, and all those
        made-up personae we see running around when the weather gets warm
        enough to wear leather and fur bikinis. <smirk>

        I do re-enactment with other "more serious" groups as well. I do
        15th century Swiss Burgundian Wars, Battle of Hastings (1066), ECW,
        Swedes from the Thirty Years War, among others. I like the SCA
        because of the breadth of what we do. Court wouldn't be so
        interesting if there weren't so many people there. Court in my other
        groups is small and you can't really lose yourself in the idea that
        this guy is King because you just plain know him too well!

        I like what we do. I would love for everyone to have authentic
        persona. But I don't care where we're all from. As Godric said, it
        is much more likely for a 14th century Japanese persona to talk to a
        14th century Italian than a 14th century Italian to talk to a 13th
        century Italian!

        Kass
        aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
      • Barbara Nostrand
        Noble Cousin! ... Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress their position up with historical argument, the root reason is
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
          Noble Cousin!

          >Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
          >are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
          >other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
          >it. Its fun!

          Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress
          their position up with historical argument, the root reason is primarily
          emotional. It has to do with people's feelings about what the middle ages
          and renaisance looked like. Most people see popular movies and undergo
          grammar school history courses before they begin studying our period of
          interest. Consequently, some folks want rustic saxon yomen slugging it
          out with Normans, or knights in shining armour from the tournament
          period or want saga period Vikings as seen in movies like "The Vikings".
          This is the sort of thing that is going on at the emotional level.
          Documenting contact or just about anything else is not likely to change
          people's feelings.

          My opinion is that Society definitions intended to support shared
          fantasy are inherently much more limiting than definitions based
          upon history.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
          --
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        • Barbara Nostrand
          Baron Seamus! I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
            Baron Seamus!

            I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS
            single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
            wasn't any "mission" of the Society in AS XI. For that matter, there was
            an Imperium and Imperial Electors not some silly BoD. Further, people
            were seriously considering moving out into the woods and living medieval
            (some actually tried to do this and are still more or less in the woods).
            A hot topic of discussion back then was "were are the serfs?"

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            Not quite as moldy in the Society as Baron Seamus but still seriously
            crusty.
            --
            +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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          • elmar schmeisser
            ... can t ... without ... Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560 s Londonized Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various awards had
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
              --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:
              ...
              > My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I
              can't
              > be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live
              without
              > Lady Fujiwara

              Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
              Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had to
              go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

              - elmar
            • Kass McGann
              ... to ... I wouldn t say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn t see not
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
                > Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                > Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had
                to
                > go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                I wouldn't say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After
                all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn't
                see not using that info in the SCA.

                To date, all of my awards were awarded to Fujiwara no Aoi. Only my
                Maunche was awarded to Caisin nic Annaidh, but I was told quite
                emphatically before the populace at Court that both Lady Fujiwara and
                Lady Caisin were receiving the accolade.

                And the East isn't usually known for being liberal-thinking... ;)

                My Laurel, Ohashi-katsutoshi, was the first Japanese persona to be
                given Laurels in the East Kingdom. He has no Western persona, though
                he "dresses down" sometimes...

                Kass
                aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                and staying that way!
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, Nihongo daibunten. Since it s really something that s only available in Japanese that s the
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
                  Joshua Badgley wrote:

                  > I am looking for a copy of the Rodriguez's famous book on Japanese
                  > grammar, but can't seem to find one. I have put in an ILL (Inter-library
                  > loan) request, but after talking to them, it looks like it might be handy
                  > to see what kind of information I can gather her as to what copies and
                  > publications are available. I know that Hiraizumi-dono has one copy, and
                  > wondered if he or others might be able to give me a helping hand on
                  > tracking down this elusive source. Any help would be appreciated.
                  >

                  You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, "Nihongo
                  daibunten." Since it's really something that's only available "in Japanese"
                  that's the title the publishers and libraries tend to use.


                  Effingham
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