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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon and law and names oh my

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  • Joshua Badgley
    ... I think it has to do with various people s visions of the SCA s purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history, from 600 AD to
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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      On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, M&A wrote:

      > Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
      > are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
      > other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
      > it. Its fun!
      >
      I think it has to do with various people's visions of the SCA's
      purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history,
      from 600 AD to 1600 AD, and anything outside of that is anachronistic and
      they would rather not have it as it ruins the mood. For these people, I
      think that the Society really is too broad and too much fantasy; they
      would almost be happier somewhere that narrowed their focus even more and
      did a better job at encouraging truly period stuff. In fact, if you want
      to truly do any kind of representation of a period encampment, feast, or
      what have you then you will have to narrow it down to a specific time, at
      least.

      For me, I finally came to the realization that the Society is more
      recreation than re-creation many times. It is not a specific
      re-creationist club, but a general club of amateur (and occassionally
      professional) historians who like to express a wide variety of their
      studies. In that light, I see nothing wrong with Japanese personae, and
      encourage them so long as a person is willing to do some research into the
      area. In fact, it is much more probable, to my mind, that a 14th century
      Japanese would sit down to eat or converse with a 14th century Italian
      than a 14th Century Italian would sit down with a 9th or even 13th century
      Italian.

      Still, because we are introducing something that is obviously
      non-European, I also wish to encourage those who take up a Japanese
      persona to attempt to do it better than most people do European. Since we
      are bending the rules, as it were, let's try to do it right, to the best
      of our ability.

      At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards Western
      European society. I guess if everyone else gave up their anachronisms and
      non-period items I would throw down my hitatare--at least in this
      group. I don't see that happening to the SCA anytime soon, however.

      -Godric Logan/Ii ????
    • elmar schmeisser
      ... Western ... Mission? Mission?? what mission ? As I recall from my first intro in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was to
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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        --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
        ...
        > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
        Western
        > European society...

        Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
        in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
        to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
        modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
        written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
        was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
        of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
        among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...

        - seamus
      • Joshua Badgley
        ... Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation society
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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          On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, elmar schmeisser wrote:

          > --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
          > ...
          > > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
          > Western
          > > European society...
          >
          > Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
          > in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
          > to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
          > modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
          > written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
          > was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
          > of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
          > among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...
          >
          Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at
          least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation
          society focused on Western Europe before the 1600s. That is what it is
          being represented as. For instance, in "Life in the Current Middle
          Ages" <http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html> it says:

          "The avowed purpose of the SCA is the study and recreation of the European
          Middle Ages, its crafts, sciences, arts, traditions, literature,
          etc. The SCA "period" is defined to be Western civilization before 1600
          AD, concentrating on the Western European High Middle Ages."

          People are advertising this to outsiders as a society dedicated to the
          study and recreation of the European Middle Ages and so I find it not at
          all surprising that, new members especially, expect to find European
          history rather than Asian.

          I agree, however, that the current society, while incorporating elements
          of re-creation and research, is still based more on this idea of the
          'Dream'. If you want to do hard core research and outfit yourself for an
          army in Mediaeval Germany with a whole army of landsknecht at your side,
          there are other organizations that are more geared towards that
          pursuit. If you want to be a part of an organization of friendly,
          similarly interested people who like to beat on you with sticks... well,
          there are some other organizations out there, but I prefer the Society,
          myself.

          I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this can
          raise many different feelings in people. While I think that discussing
          our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in the
          Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or isn't
          might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll try to
          shut up now.


          -Godric Logan/Ii <Daredare>
        • Kass McGann
          ... can ... discussing ... the ... isn t ... try to ... Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When the SCA started, it was a theme
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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            > I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this
            can
            > raise many different feelings in people. While I think that
            discussing
            > our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in
            the
            > Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or
            isn't
            > might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll
            try to
            > shut up now.

            Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When
            the SCA started, it was a theme party. Today, it is something a bit
            different from what began back in the 60s in Berkeley. Some people
            in our Society are making high-level replicas and doing some stunning
            experimental archeology. Others are wearing sweatpants and T-shirt
            under their plastic armour.

            My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I can't
            be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live without
            Lady Fujiwara. But if they come down with that ruling, then they
            have to outlaw pre-600 personae and post-1600 personae, and all those
            made-up personae we see running around when the weather gets warm
            enough to wear leather and fur bikinis. <smirk>

            I do re-enactment with other "more serious" groups as well. I do
            15th century Swiss Burgundian Wars, Battle of Hastings (1066), ECW,
            Swedes from the Thirty Years War, among others. I like the SCA
            because of the breadth of what we do. Court wouldn't be so
            interesting if there weren't so many people there. Court in my other
            groups is small and you can't really lose yourself in the idea that
            this guy is King because you just plain know him too well!

            I like what we do. I would love for everyone to have authentic
            persona. But I don't care where we're all from. As Godric said, it
            is much more likely for a 14th century Japanese persona to talk to a
            14th century Italian than a 14th century Italian to talk to a 13th
            century Italian!

            Kass
            aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Noble Cousin! ... Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress their position up with historical argument, the root reason is
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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              Noble Cousin!

              >Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
              >are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
              >other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
              >it. Its fun!

              Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress
              their position up with historical argument, the root reason is primarily
              emotional. It has to do with people's feelings about what the middle ages
              and renaisance looked like. Most people see popular movies and undergo
              grammar school history courses before they begin studying our period of
              interest. Consequently, some folks want rustic saxon yomen slugging it
              out with Normans, or knights in shining armour from the tournament
              period or want saga period Vikings as seen in movies like "The Vikings".
              This is the sort of thing that is going on at the emotional level.
              Documenting contact or just about anything else is not likely to change
              people's feelings.

              My opinion is that Society definitions intended to support shared
              fantasy are inherently much more limiting than definitions based
              upon history.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
              --
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              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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            • Barbara Nostrand
              Baron Seamus! I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                Baron Seamus!

                I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS
                single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                wasn't any "mission" of the Society in AS XI. For that matter, there was
                an Imperium and Imperial Electors not some silly BoD. Further, people
                were seriously considering moving out into the woods and living medieval
                (some actually tried to do this and are still more or less in the woods).
                A hot topic of discussion back then was "were are the serfs?"

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                Not quite as moldy in the Society as Baron Seamus but still seriously
                crusty.
                --
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                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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              • elmar schmeisser
                ... can t ... without ... Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560 s Londonized Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various awards had
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                  --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:
                  ...
                  > My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I
                  can't
                  > be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live
                  without
                  > Lady Fujiwara

                  Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                  Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had to
                  go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                  - elmar
                • Kass McGann
                  ... to ... I wouldn t say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn t see not
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                    > Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                    > Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had
                    to
                    > go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                    I wouldn't say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After
                    all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn't
                    see not using that info in the SCA.

                    To date, all of my awards were awarded to Fujiwara no Aoi. Only my
                    Maunche was awarded to Caisin nic Annaidh, but I was told quite
                    emphatically before the populace at Court that both Lady Fujiwara and
                    Lady Caisin were receiving the accolade.

                    And the East isn't usually known for being liberal-thinking... ;)

                    My Laurel, Ohashi-katsutoshi, was the first Japanese persona to be
                    given Laurels in the East Kingdom. He has no Western persona, though
                    he "dresses down" sometimes...

                    Kass
                    aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                    and staying that way!
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, Nihongo daibunten. Since it s really something that s only available in Japanese that s the
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                      Joshua Badgley wrote:

                      > I am looking for a copy of the Rodriguez's famous book on Japanese
                      > grammar, but can't seem to find one. I have put in an ILL (Inter-library
                      > loan) request, but after talking to them, it looks like it might be handy
                      > to see what kind of information I can gather her as to what copies and
                      > publications are available. I know that Hiraizumi-dono has one copy, and
                      > wondered if he or others might be able to give me a helping hand on
                      > tracking down this elusive source. Any help would be appreciated.
                      >

                      You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, "Nihongo
                      daibunten." Since it's really something that's only available "in Japanese"
                      that's the title the publishers and libraries tend to use.


                      Effingham
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