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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon and law and names oh my

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  • M&A
    Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the other
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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      Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
      are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
      other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
      it. Its fun!

      Mori


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Barbara Nostrand" <nostrand@...>
      To: <sca-jml@egroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:52 AM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon and law and names oh my


      > Noble Cousin!
      >
      >
      > >As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment
      in
      > >this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has,
      to my
      > >recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had
      two
      > >japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
      > >haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to
      me
      > >about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.
      >
      > Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with
      > non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert "European"
      > into the definition of the purpose of events. Whether and to what
      > extent this one word insertion will be paid attention to will vary
      > quite a bit. I know people who will jump on it, and attempt to use it
      > to limit the sort of events held in the Society.
      >
      > Your Humble Servant
      > Solveig Throndardottir
      > Amateur Scholar
      > --
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    • Joshua Badgley
      ... I think it has to do with various people s visions of the SCA s purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history, from 600 AD to
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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        On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, M&A wrote:

        > Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
        > are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
        > other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
        > it. Its fun!
        >
        I think it has to do with various people's visions of the SCA's
        purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history,
        from 600 AD to 1600 AD, and anything outside of that is anachronistic and
        they would rather not have it as it ruins the mood. For these people, I
        think that the Society really is too broad and too much fantasy; they
        would almost be happier somewhere that narrowed their focus even more and
        did a better job at encouraging truly period stuff. In fact, if you want
        to truly do any kind of representation of a period encampment, feast, or
        what have you then you will have to narrow it down to a specific time, at
        least.

        For me, I finally came to the realization that the Society is more
        recreation than re-creation many times. It is not a specific
        re-creationist club, but a general club of amateur (and occassionally
        professional) historians who like to express a wide variety of their
        studies. In that light, I see nothing wrong with Japanese personae, and
        encourage them so long as a person is willing to do some research into the
        area. In fact, it is much more probable, to my mind, that a 14th century
        Japanese would sit down to eat or converse with a 14th century Italian
        than a 14th Century Italian would sit down with a 9th or even 13th century
        Italian.

        Still, because we are introducing something that is obviously
        non-European, I also wish to encourage those who take up a Japanese
        persona to attempt to do it better than most people do European. Since we
        are bending the rules, as it were, let's try to do it right, to the best
        of our ability.

        At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards Western
        European society. I guess if everyone else gave up their anachronisms and
        non-period items I would throw down my hitatare--at least in this
        group. I don't see that happening to the SCA anytime soon, however.

        -Godric Logan/Ii ????
      • elmar schmeisser
        ... Western ... Mission? Mission?? what mission ? As I recall from my first intro in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was to
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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          --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
          ...
          > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
          Western
          > European society...

          Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
          in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
          to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
          modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
          written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
          was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
          of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
          among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...

          - seamus
        • Joshua Badgley
          ... Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation society
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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            On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, elmar schmeisser wrote:

            > --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
            > ...
            > > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
            > Western
            > > European society...
            >
            > Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
            > in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
            > to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
            > modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
            > written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
            > was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
            > of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
            > among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...
            >
            Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at
            least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation
            society focused on Western Europe before the 1600s. That is what it is
            being represented as. For instance, in "Life in the Current Middle
            Ages" <http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html> it says:

            "The avowed purpose of the SCA is the study and recreation of the European
            Middle Ages, its crafts, sciences, arts, traditions, literature,
            etc. The SCA "period" is defined to be Western civilization before 1600
            AD, concentrating on the Western European High Middle Ages."

            People are advertising this to outsiders as a society dedicated to the
            study and recreation of the European Middle Ages and so I find it not at
            all surprising that, new members especially, expect to find European
            history rather than Asian.

            I agree, however, that the current society, while incorporating elements
            of re-creation and research, is still based more on this idea of the
            'Dream'. If you want to do hard core research and outfit yourself for an
            army in Mediaeval Germany with a whole army of landsknecht at your side,
            there are other organizations that are more geared towards that
            pursuit. If you want to be a part of an organization of friendly,
            similarly interested people who like to beat on you with sticks... well,
            there are some other organizations out there, but I prefer the Society,
            myself.

            I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this can
            raise many different feelings in people. While I think that discussing
            our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in the
            Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or isn't
            might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll try to
            shut up now.


            -Godric Logan/Ii <Daredare>
          • Kass McGann
            ... can ... discussing ... the ... isn t ... try to ... Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When the SCA started, it was a theme
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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              > I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this
              can
              > raise many different feelings in people. While I think that
              discussing
              > our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in
              the
              > Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or
              isn't
              > might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll
              try to
              > shut up now.

              Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When
              the SCA started, it was a theme party. Today, it is something a bit
              different from what began back in the 60s in Berkeley. Some people
              in our Society are making high-level replicas and doing some stunning
              experimental archeology. Others are wearing sweatpants and T-shirt
              under their plastic armour.

              My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I can't
              be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live without
              Lady Fujiwara. But if they come down with that ruling, then they
              have to outlaw pre-600 personae and post-1600 personae, and all those
              made-up personae we see running around when the weather gets warm
              enough to wear leather and fur bikinis. <smirk>

              I do re-enactment with other "more serious" groups as well. I do
              15th century Swiss Burgundian Wars, Battle of Hastings (1066), ECW,
              Swedes from the Thirty Years War, among others. I like the SCA
              because of the breadth of what we do. Court wouldn't be so
              interesting if there weren't so many people there. Court in my other
              groups is small and you can't really lose yourself in the idea that
              this guy is King because you just plain know him too well!

              I like what we do. I would love for everyone to have authentic
              persona. But I don't care where we're all from. As Godric said, it
              is much more likely for a 14th century Japanese persona to talk to a
              14th century Italian than a 14th century Italian to talk to a 13th
              century Italian!

              Kass
              aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
            • Barbara Nostrand
              Noble Cousin! ... Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress their position up with historical argument, the root reason is
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                Noble Cousin!

                >Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
                >are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
                >other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
                >it. Its fun!

                Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress
                their position up with historical argument, the root reason is primarily
                emotional. It has to do with people's feelings about what the middle ages
                and renaisance looked like. Most people see popular movies and undergo
                grammar school history courses before they begin studying our period of
                interest. Consequently, some folks want rustic saxon yomen slugging it
                out with Normans, or knights in shining armour from the tournament
                period or want saga period Vikings as seen in movies like "The Vikings".
                This is the sort of thing that is going on at the emotional level.
                Documenting contact or just about anything else is not likely to change
                people's feelings.

                My opinion is that Society definitions intended to support shared
                fantasy are inherently much more limiting than definitions based
                upon history.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
                --
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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              • Barbara Nostrand
                Baron Seamus! I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                  Baron Seamus!

                  I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS
                  single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                  wasn't any "mission" of the Society in AS XI. For that matter, there was
                  an Imperium and Imperial Electors not some silly BoD. Further, people
                  were seriously considering moving out into the woods and living medieval
                  (some actually tried to do this and are still more or less in the woods).
                  A hot topic of discussion back then was "were are the serfs?"

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  Not quite as moldy in the Society as Baron Seamus but still seriously
                  crusty.
                  --
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                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                • elmar schmeisser
                  ... can t ... without ... Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560 s Londonized Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various awards had
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                    --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:
                    ...
                    > My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I
                    can't
                    > be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live
                    without
                    > Lady Fujiwara

                    Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                    Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had to
                    go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                    - elmar
                  • Kass McGann
                    ... to ... I wouldn t say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn t see not
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                      > Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                      > Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had
                      to
                      > go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                      I wouldn't say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After
                      all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn't
                      see not using that info in the SCA.

                      To date, all of my awards were awarded to Fujiwara no Aoi. Only my
                      Maunche was awarded to Caisin nic Annaidh, but I was told quite
                      emphatically before the populace at Court that both Lady Fujiwara and
                      Lady Caisin were receiving the accolade.

                      And the East isn't usually known for being liberal-thinking... ;)

                      My Laurel, Ohashi-katsutoshi, was the first Japanese persona to be
                      given Laurels in the East Kingdom. He has no Western persona, though
                      he "dresses down" sometimes...

                      Kass
                      aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                      and staying that way!
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, Nihongo daibunten. Since it s really something that s only available in Japanese that s the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                        Joshua Badgley wrote:

                        > I am looking for a copy of the Rodriguez's famous book on Japanese
                        > grammar, but can't seem to find one. I have put in an ILL (Inter-library
                        > loan) request, but after talking to them, it looks like it might be handy
                        > to see what kind of information I can gather her as to what copies and
                        > publications are available. I know that Hiraizumi-dono has one copy, and
                        > wondered if he or others might be able to give me a helping hand on
                        > tracking down this elusive source. Any help would be appreciated.
                        >

                        You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, "Nihongo
                        daibunten." Since it's really something that's only available "in Japanese"
                        that's the title the publishers and libraries tend to use.


                        Effingham
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