Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon and law and names oh my

Expand Messages
  • mercy67@aol.com
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      <<Further, the current draft for the Organizational
      Handbook revision appears to prohibit non-European theme events. This could
      affect a lot more than just Japanese events if people were to take it
      seriously.>>

      As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment in
      this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has, to my
      recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had two
      japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
      haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to me
      about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.

      I've only been in the SCA for a year and a half so far, but I've noticed the
      "selective" use of rules for a number of things within our Knowne World.
      Basically, I've come to the conclusion of trying things out and if there is a
      problem, someone higher up will let one know.

      Personally, once I make up my darn mind on a name and a mon, I will try it.
      If it doesn't pass, it doesn't pass. Try again with something else. Why
      worry about things one can't controll anyhow? And if you find out you need
      an AoA before you can put your name in, then you at least use the name until
      the AoA passes and then, make it official. I dunno, maybe I'm over
      simplifying the situation, so I apologize if I've totally missed the point of
      all this.

      On a side note, I wish there was someone who not only did Japanese names in
      the CoH but also did Chinese and other asian (non-european names). I found
      it amazing when I came into the SCA the lack of chinese (especially) persona.
      But I suppose most people don't count the silk or porcelaine trade routes as
      a strong enough connection to the european world. Ah well. I'm still new,
      so I'm probably just missing something (yet again).

      --Mercy
    • Barbara Nostrand
      Noble Cousin! ... Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert European
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        Noble Cousin!


        >As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment in
        >this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has, to my
        >recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had two
        >japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
        >haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to me
        >about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.

        Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with
        non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert "European"
        into the definition of the purpose of events. Whether and to what
        extent this one word insertion will be paid attention to will vary
        quite a bit. I know people who will jump on it, and attempt to use it
        to limit the sort of events held in the Society.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
        --
        +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
        +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
        | vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
        | netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
        | com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
        | mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
        | techie.com, msn.com |
        +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
      • M&A
        Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the other
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
          are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
          other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
          it. Its fun!

          Mori


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Barbara Nostrand" <nostrand@...>
          To: <sca-jml@egroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon and law and names oh my


          > Noble Cousin!
          >
          >
          > >As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment
          in
          > >this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has,
          to my
          > >recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had
          two
          > >japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
          > >haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to
          me
          > >about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.
          >
          > Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with
          > non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert "European"
          > into the definition of the purpose of events. Whether and to what
          > extent this one word insertion will be paid attention to will vary
          > quite a bit. I know people who will jump on it, and attempt to use it
          > to limit the sort of events held in the Society.
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar
          > --
          > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
          > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
          > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          > | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
          > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
          > | Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
          > | vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
          > | netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
          > | com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
          > | mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
          > | techie.com, msn.com |
          > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
          >
          >
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@...
          >
        • Joshua Badgley
          ... I think it has to do with various people s visions of the SCA s purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history, from 600 AD to
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, M&A wrote:

            > Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
            > are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
            > other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
            > it. Its fun!
            >
            I think it has to do with various people's visions of the SCA's
            purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history,
            from 600 AD to 1600 AD, and anything outside of that is anachronistic and
            they would rather not have it as it ruins the mood. For these people, I
            think that the Society really is too broad and too much fantasy; they
            would almost be happier somewhere that narrowed their focus even more and
            did a better job at encouraging truly period stuff. In fact, if you want
            to truly do any kind of representation of a period encampment, feast, or
            what have you then you will have to narrow it down to a specific time, at
            least.

            For me, I finally came to the realization that the Society is more
            recreation than re-creation many times. It is not a specific
            re-creationist club, but a general club of amateur (and occassionally
            professional) historians who like to express a wide variety of their
            studies. In that light, I see nothing wrong with Japanese personae, and
            encourage them so long as a person is willing to do some research into the
            area. In fact, it is much more probable, to my mind, that a 14th century
            Japanese would sit down to eat or converse with a 14th century Italian
            than a 14th Century Italian would sit down with a 9th or even 13th century
            Italian.

            Still, because we are introducing something that is obviously
            non-European, I also wish to encourage those who take up a Japanese
            persona to attempt to do it better than most people do European. Since we
            are bending the rules, as it were, let's try to do it right, to the best
            of our ability.

            At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards Western
            European society. I guess if everyone else gave up their anachronisms and
            non-period items I would throw down my hitatare--at least in this
            group. I don't see that happening to the SCA anytime soon, however.

            -Godric Logan/Ii ????
          • elmar schmeisser
            ... Western ... Mission? Mission?? what mission ? As I recall from my first intro in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was to
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
              ...
              > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
              Western
              > European society...

              Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
              in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
              to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
              modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
              written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
              was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
              of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
              among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...

              - seamus
            • Joshua Badgley
              ... Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation society
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, elmar schmeisser wrote:

                > --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
                > ...
                > > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
                > Western
                > > European society...
                >
                > Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
                > in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
                > to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
                > modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
                > written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
                > was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
                > of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
                > among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...
                >
                Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at
                least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation
                society focused on Western Europe before the 1600s. That is what it is
                being represented as. For instance, in "Life in the Current Middle
                Ages" <http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html> it says:

                "The avowed purpose of the SCA is the study and recreation of the European
                Middle Ages, its crafts, sciences, arts, traditions, literature,
                etc. The SCA "period" is defined to be Western civilization before 1600
                AD, concentrating on the Western European High Middle Ages."

                People are advertising this to outsiders as a society dedicated to the
                study and recreation of the European Middle Ages and so I find it not at
                all surprising that, new members especially, expect to find European
                history rather than Asian.

                I agree, however, that the current society, while incorporating elements
                of re-creation and research, is still based more on this idea of the
                'Dream'. If you want to do hard core research and outfit yourself for an
                army in Mediaeval Germany with a whole army of landsknecht at your side,
                there are other organizations that are more geared towards that
                pursuit. If you want to be a part of an organization of friendly,
                similarly interested people who like to beat on you with sticks... well,
                there are some other organizations out there, but I prefer the Society,
                myself.

                I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this can
                raise many different feelings in people. While I think that discussing
                our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in the
                Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or isn't
                might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll try to
                shut up now.


                -Godric Logan/Ii <Daredare>
              • Kass McGann
                ... can ... discussing ... the ... isn t ... try to ... Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When the SCA started, it was a theme
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  > I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this
                  can
                  > raise many different feelings in people. While I think that
                  discussing
                  > our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in
                  the
                  > Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or
                  isn't
                  > might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll
                  try to
                  > shut up now.

                  Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When
                  the SCA started, it was a theme party. Today, it is something a bit
                  different from what began back in the 60s in Berkeley. Some people
                  in our Society are making high-level replicas and doing some stunning
                  experimental archeology. Others are wearing sweatpants and T-shirt
                  under their plastic armour.

                  My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I can't
                  be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live without
                  Lady Fujiwara. But if they come down with that ruling, then they
                  have to outlaw pre-600 personae and post-1600 personae, and all those
                  made-up personae we see running around when the weather gets warm
                  enough to wear leather and fur bikinis. <smirk>

                  I do re-enactment with other "more serious" groups as well. I do
                  15th century Swiss Burgundian Wars, Battle of Hastings (1066), ECW,
                  Swedes from the Thirty Years War, among others. I like the SCA
                  because of the breadth of what we do. Court wouldn't be so
                  interesting if there weren't so many people there. Court in my other
                  groups is small and you can't really lose yourself in the idea that
                  this guy is King because you just plain know him too well!

                  I like what we do. I would love for everyone to have authentic
                  persona. But I don't care where we're all from. As Godric said, it
                  is much more likely for a 14th century Japanese persona to talk to a
                  14th century Italian than a 14th century Italian to talk to a 13th
                  century Italian!

                  Kass
                  aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                • Barbara Nostrand
                  Noble Cousin! ... Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress their position up with historical argument, the root reason is
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Noble Cousin!

                    >Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
                    >are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
                    >other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
                    >it. Its fun!

                    Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress
                    their position up with historical argument, the root reason is primarily
                    emotional. It has to do with people's feelings about what the middle ages
                    and renaisance looked like. Most people see popular movies and undergo
                    grammar school history courses before they begin studying our period of
                    interest. Consequently, some folks want rustic saxon yomen slugging it
                    out with Normans, or knights in shining armour from the tournament
                    period or want saga period Vikings as seen in movies like "The Vikings".
                    This is the sort of thing that is going on at the emotional level.
                    Documenting contact or just about anything else is not likely to change
                    people's feelings.

                    My opinion is that Society definitions intended to support shared
                    fantasy are inherently much more limiting than definitions based
                    upon history.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar
                    --
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
                    | vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
                    | netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
                    | com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
                    | mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
                    | techie.com, msn.com |
                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Baron Seamus! I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Baron Seamus!

                      I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS
                      single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                      wasn't any "mission" of the Society in AS XI. For that matter, there was
                      an Imperium and Imperial Electors not some silly BoD. Further, people
                      were seriously considering moving out into the woods and living medieval
                      (some actually tried to do this and are still more or less in the woods).
                      A hot topic of discussion back then was "were are the serfs?"

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      Not quite as moldy in the Society as Baron Seamus but still seriously
                      crusty.
                      --
                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
                      | vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
                      | netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
                      | com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
                      | mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
                      | techie.com, msn.com |
                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    • elmar schmeisser
                      ... can t ... without ... Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560 s Londonized Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various awards had
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:
                        ...
                        > My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I
                        can't
                        > be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live
                        without
                        > Lady Fujiwara

                        Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                        Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had to
                        go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                        - elmar
                      • Kass McGann
                        ... to ... I wouldn t say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn t see not
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                          > Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had
                          to
                          > go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                          I wouldn't say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After
                          all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn't
                          see not using that info in the SCA.

                          To date, all of my awards were awarded to Fujiwara no Aoi. Only my
                          Maunche was awarded to Caisin nic Annaidh, but I was told quite
                          emphatically before the populace at Court that both Lady Fujiwara and
                          Lady Caisin were receiving the accolade.

                          And the East isn't usually known for being liberal-thinking... ;)

                          My Laurel, Ohashi-katsutoshi, was the first Japanese persona to be
                          given Laurels in the East Kingdom. He has no Western persona, though
                          he "dresses down" sometimes...

                          Kass
                          aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                          and staying that way!
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, Nihongo daibunten. Since it s really something that s only available in Japanese that s the
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Joshua Badgley wrote:

                            > I am looking for a copy of the Rodriguez's famous book on Japanese
                            > grammar, but can't seem to find one. I have put in an ILL (Inter-library
                            > loan) request, but after talking to them, it looks like it might be handy
                            > to see what kind of information I can gather her as to what copies and
                            > publications are available. I know that Hiraizumi-dono has one copy, and
                            > wondered if he or others might be able to give me a helping hand on
                            > tracking down this elusive source. Any help would be appreciated.
                            >

                            You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, "Nihongo
                            daibunten." Since it's really something that's only available "in Japanese"
                            that's the title the publishers and libraries tend to use.


                            Effingham
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.