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Re: [SCA-JML] Arte della lingoa..(sp?)

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  • Barbara Nostrand
    Lord Godric. Baron Edward ordered the grammar on-line from Kinokuniya. There may be a very limited number of copies in North America. Your Humble Servant
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 31, 2000
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      Lord Godric.

      Baron Edward ordered the grammar on-line from Kinokuniya. There may be
      a very limited number of copies in North America.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
      --
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    • mercy67@aol.com
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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        <<Further, the current draft for the Organizational
        Handbook revision appears to prohibit non-European theme events. This could
        affect a lot more than just Japanese events if people were to take it
        seriously.>>

        As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment in
        this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has, to my
        recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had two
        japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
        haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to me
        about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.

        I've only been in the SCA for a year and a half so far, but I've noticed the
        "selective" use of rules for a number of things within our Knowne World.
        Basically, I've come to the conclusion of trying things out and if there is a
        problem, someone higher up will let one know.

        Personally, once I make up my darn mind on a name and a mon, I will try it.
        If it doesn't pass, it doesn't pass. Try again with something else. Why
        worry about things one can't controll anyhow? And if you find out you need
        an AoA before you can put your name in, then you at least use the name until
        the AoA passes and then, make it official. I dunno, maybe I'm over
        simplifying the situation, so I apologize if I've totally missed the point of
        all this.

        On a side note, I wish there was someone who not only did Japanese names in
        the CoH but also did Chinese and other asian (non-european names). I found
        it amazing when I came into the SCA the lack of chinese (especially) persona.
        But I suppose most people don't count the silk or porcelaine trade routes as
        a strong enough connection to the european world. Ah well. I'm still new,
        so I'm probably just missing something (yet again).

        --Mercy
      • Barbara Nostrand
        Noble Cousin! ... Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert European
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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          Noble Cousin!


          >As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment in
          >this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has, to my
          >recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had two
          >japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
          >haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to me
          >about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.

          Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with
          non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert "European"
          into the definition of the purpose of events. Whether and to what
          extent this one word insertion will be paid attention to will vary
          quite a bit. I know people who will jump on it, and attempt to use it
          to limit the sort of events held in the Society.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
          --
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          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
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        • M&A
          Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the other
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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            Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
            are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
            other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
            it. Its fun!

            Mori


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Barbara Nostrand" <nostrand@...>
            To: <sca-jml@egroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:52 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon and law and names oh my


            > Noble Cousin!
            >
            >
            > >As a Senschal in Caid (with poor spelling) I think your opprative comment
            in
            > >this whole thing is "if people were to take this seriously." Caid has,
            to my
            > >recollection (which isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination) had
            two
            > >japanese tourneys (one in my Barony that I run and one in Hawaii) and I
            > >haven't seen anyone, especially my Kingdom supervisior, say one word to
            me
            > >about having to worry about not doing those sorts of events.
            >
            > Under the current Organizational Handbook there is no problem with
            > non-European theme events. What the draft copy does is insert "European"
            > into the definition of the purpose of events. Whether and to what
            > extent this one word insertion will be paid attention to will vary
            > quite a bit. I know people who will jump on it, and attempt to use it
            > to limit the sort of events held in the Society.
            >
            > Your Humble Servant
            > Solveig Throndardottir
            > Amateur Scholar
            > --
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            > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
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          • Joshua Badgley
            ... I think it has to do with various people s visions of the SCA s purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history, from 600 AD to
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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              On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, M&A wrote:

              > Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
              > are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
              > other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
              > it. Its fun!
              >
              I think it has to do with various people's visions of the SCA's
              purpose. For some, they see it as the study of Western European history,
              from 600 AD to 1600 AD, and anything outside of that is anachronistic and
              they would rather not have it as it ruins the mood. For these people, I
              think that the Society really is too broad and too much fantasy; they
              would almost be happier somewhere that narrowed their focus even more and
              did a better job at encouraging truly period stuff. In fact, if you want
              to truly do any kind of representation of a period encampment, feast, or
              what have you then you will have to narrow it down to a specific time, at
              least.

              For me, I finally came to the realization that the Society is more
              recreation than re-creation many times. It is not a specific
              re-creationist club, but a general club of amateur (and occassionally
              professional) historians who like to express a wide variety of their
              studies. In that light, I see nothing wrong with Japanese personae, and
              encourage them so long as a person is willing to do some research into the
              area. In fact, it is much more probable, to my mind, that a 14th century
              Japanese would sit down to eat or converse with a 14th century Italian
              than a 14th Century Italian would sit down with a 9th or even 13th century
              Italian.

              Still, because we are introducing something that is obviously
              non-European, I also wish to encourage those who take up a Japanese
              persona to attempt to do it better than most people do European. Since we
              are bending the rules, as it were, let's try to do it right, to the best
              of our ability.

              At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards Western
              European society. I guess if everyone else gave up their anachronisms and
              non-period items I would throw down my hitatare--at least in this
              group. I don't see that happening to the SCA anytime soon, however.

              -Godric Logan/Ii ????
            • elmar schmeisser
              ... Western ... Mission? Mission?? what mission ? As I recall from my first intro in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was to
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
                ...
                > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
                Western
                > European society...

                Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
                in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
                to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
                modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
                written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
                was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
                of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
                among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...

                - seamus
              • Joshua Badgley
                ... Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation society
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                  On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, elmar schmeisser wrote:

                  > --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Joshua Badgley <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
                  > ...
                  > > At the same time, the mission of the Society is geared towards
                  > Western
                  > > European society...
                  >
                  > Mission? Mission?? what "mission"? As I recall from my first intro
                  > in AS3 (gods - so long ago? no wonder my bones hurt) - the idea was
                  > to celebrate the ideals of sword bearing societies, and was "kinda"
                  > modeled after an idealized Camelot crossed with Faierie. As was
                  > written elsewhere, an armed society is a polite society - and the SCA
                  > was a rebellion against the depersonalization and its consequent loss
                  > of grace and elegance in the mundane world. The other old geezers
                  > among us can correct me, but I don't recall any "mission"...
                  >
                  Regardless of whether there was anything to begin with the Society, or at
                  least parts of it, seem to claim that we are a mediaeval re-creation
                  society focused on Western Europe before the 1600s. That is what it is
                  being represented as. For instance, in "Life in the Current Middle
                  Ages" <http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html> it says:

                  "The avowed purpose of the SCA is the study and recreation of the European
                  Middle Ages, its crafts, sciences, arts, traditions, literature,
                  etc. The SCA "period" is defined to be Western civilization before 1600
                  AD, concentrating on the Western European High Middle Ages."

                  People are advertising this to outsiders as a society dedicated to the
                  study and recreation of the European Middle Ages and so I find it not at
                  all surprising that, new members especially, expect to find European
                  history rather than Asian.

                  I agree, however, that the current society, while incorporating elements
                  of re-creation and research, is still based more on this idea of the
                  'Dream'. If you want to do hard core research and outfit yourself for an
                  army in Mediaeval Germany with a whole army of landsknecht at your side,
                  there are other organizations that are more geared towards that
                  pursuit. If you want to be a part of an organization of friendly,
                  similarly interested people who like to beat on you with sticks... well,
                  there are some other organizations out there, but I prefer the Society,
                  myself.

                  I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this can
                  raise many different feelings in people. While I think that discussing
                  our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in the
                  Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or isn't
                  might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll try to
                  shut up now.


                  -Godric Logan/Ii <Daredare>
                • Kass McGann
                  ... can ... discussing ... the ... isn t ... try to ... Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When the SCA started, it was a theme
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                    > I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I realize, too that this
                    can
                    > raise many different feelings in people. While I think that
                    discussing
                    > our place as Japanese personae or students of Japanese history in
                    the
                    > Society is relevant, a large discussion on what the Society is or
                    isn't
                    > might be better suited to be eventually taken off the list. I'll
                    try to
                    > shut up now.

                    Not necessary, Godric. You and Seamus both make good points. When
                    the SCA started, it was a theme party. Today, it is something a bit
                    different from what began back in the 60s in Berkeley. Some people
                    in our Society are making high-level replicas and doing some stunning
                    experimental archeology. Others are wearing sweatpants and T-shirt
                    under their plastic armour.

                    My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I can't
                    be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live without
                    Lady Fujiwara. But if they come down with that ruling, then they
                    have to outlaw pre-600 personae and post-1600 personae, and all those
                    made-up personae we see running around when the weather gets warm
                    enough to wear leather and fur bikinis. <smirk>

                    I do re-enactment with other "more serious" groups as well. I do
                    15th century Swiss Burgundian Wars, Battle of Hastings (1066), ECW,
                    Swedes from the Thirty Years War, among others. I like the SCA
                    because of the breadth of what we do. Court wouldn't be so
                    interesting if there weren't so many people there. Court in my other
                    groups is small and you can't really lose yourself in the idea that
                    this guy is King because you just plain know him too well!

                    I like what we do. I would love for everyone to have authentic
                    persona. But I don't care where we're all from. As Godric said, it
                    is much more likely for a 14th century Japanese persona to talk to a
                    14th century Italian than a 14th century Italian to talk to a 13th
                    century Italian!

                    Kass
                    aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Noble Cousin! ... Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress their position up with historical argument, the root reason is
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      >Why are many people in the SCA so against Non European persona? The letters
                      >are not ESAC. I would think the diversity and knowledge from all of the
                      >other people interested in this aspect would be welcome. I know I welcome
                      >it. Its fun!

                      Although folks who are against non-European persona may sometimes dress
                      their position up with historical argument, the root reason is primarily
                      emotional. It has to do with people's feelings about what the middle ages
                      and renaisance looked like. Most people see popular movies and undergo
                      grammar school history courses before they begin studying our period of
                      interest. Consequently, some folks want rustic saxon yomen slugging it
                      out with Normans, or knights in shining armour from the tournament
                      period or want saga period Vikings as seen in movies like "The Vikings".
                      This is the sort of thing that is going on at the emotional level.
                      Documenting contact or just about anything else is not likely to change
                      people's feelings.

                      My opinion is that Society definitions intended to support shared
                      fantasy are inherently much more limiting than definitions based
                      upon history.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar
                      --
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                    • Barbara Nostrand
                      Baron Seamus! I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 1, 2000
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                        Baron Seamus!

                        I first learned about the Society from a To Tell The Truth program in AS
                        single digits and actually made it into the Society in AS XI. There sure
                        wasn't any "mission" of the Society in AS XI. For that matter, there was
                        an Imperium and Imperial Electors not some silly BoD. Further, people
                        were seriously considering moving out into the woods and living medieval
                        (some actually tried to do this and are still more or less in the woods).
                        A hot topic of discussion back then was "were are the serfs?"

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        Not quite as moldy in the Society as Baron Seamus but still seriously
                        crusty.
                        --
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                      • elmar schmeisser
                        ... can t ... without ... Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560 s Londonized Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various awards had
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                          --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:
                          ...
                          > My general opinion on non-Western persona is if they tell me I
                          can't
                          > be one, I won't. I do 16th century Irish too. I could live
                          without
                          > Lady Fujiwara

                          Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                          Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had to
                          go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                          - elmar
                        • Kass McGann
                          ... to ... I wouldn t say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn t see not
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                            > Had to go there too - I have a western persona (1560's Londonized
                            > Scot) as well as the same year Japanese. The various "awards" had
                            to
                            > go to the Scot (Seamus), but with my household, I was Jutte.

                            I wouldn't say I *had* to develop a Western persona, Elmar. After
                            all, I have studied all the extant Irish textiles and I just couldn't
                            see not using that info in the SCA.

                            To date, all of my awards were awarded to Fujiwara no Aoi. Only my
                            Maunche was awarded to Caisin nic Annaidh, but I was told quite
                            emphatically before the populace at Court that both Lady Fujiwara and
                            Lady Caisin were receiving the accolade.

                            And the East isn't usually known for being liberal-thinking... ;)

                            My Laurel, Ohashi-katsutoshi, was the first Japanese persona to be
                            given Laurels in the East Kingdom. He has no Western persona, though
                            he "dresses down" sometimes...

                            Kass
                            aka Fujiwara no Aoi-hime
                            and staying that way!
                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                            ... You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, Nihongo daibunten. Since it s really something that s only available in Japanese that s the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 2, 2000
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                              Joshua Badgley wrote:

                              > I am looking for a copy of the Rodriguez's famous book on Japanese
                              > grammar, but can't seem to find one. I have put in an ILL (Inter-library
                              > loan) request, but after talking to them, it looks like it might be handy
                              > to see what kind of information I can gather her as to what copies and
                              > publications are available. I know that Hiraizumi-dono has one copy, and
                              > wondered if he or others might be able to give me a helping hand on
                              > tracking down this elusive source. Any help would be appreciated.
                              >

                              You might have better luck if you try the Japanese name, "Nihongo
                              daibunten." Since it's really something that's only available "in Japanese"
                              that's the title the publishers and libraries tend to use.


                              Effingham
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