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Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions

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  • Horatius at the Bridge
    THank you very much for the information. History doesn t always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, Why don t you listen to me? and lets fly with a
    Message 1 of 23 , May 11, 2006
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      THank you very much for the information.


      "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
      you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





      >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
      >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
      >Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:07:15 -0400
      >
      >Noble Cousin!
      >
      >Greetings from Solveig!
      >
      > > 1. When registering a mon, does it make a difference if the annulet is
      > > round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word annulet describe only one
      > > particular shape?
      >
      >Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you are doing and how
      >the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet goes all the way to the
      >edge, then it becomes a border and all borders of the same tincture are
      >equivalent. Incidentally, while there are a few examples of annulets in
      >pre-1600 kamon, they are not particularly popular until after 1600.
      >Basically, it is usually better style NOT to have an annulet.
      >
      > > 2. If the mon being registered bears an unitentional resemblance to a
      > > now
      > > (presumably) defunct company can it still be registered? [I discovered
      > > that
      > > something similar to the device I"m trying to get registered was used
      > > by a
      > > film company in the early 60s. I can see at least 4 points of
      > > difference,
      > > but this concerns me nonetheless.]
      >
      >The College of Arms does not currently compare things to trademarks.
      >Your only problem might be obtrusive modernity.
      >
      > Your Humble Servant
      > Solveig Throndardottir
      > Amateur Scholar
      >
      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
      >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
      >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
      >| the trash by my email filters. |
      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Rei Shounagon
      Konnichiwa, minna-sama! ... It seems confusing to this one to use the word annulet to describe all sorts of encircling shapes, since the word annulet is
      Message 2 of 23 , May 14, 2006
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        Konnichiwa, minna-sama!

        Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        >
        > > 1. When registering a mon, does it make a
        > difference if the annulet is
        > > round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word
        > annulet describe only one
        > > particular shape?
        >
        > Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you
        > are doing and how
        > the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet goes all
        > the way to the
        > edge, then it becomes a border and all borders of
        > the same tincture are
        > equivalent. Incidentally, while there are a few
        > examples of annulets in
        > pre-1600 kamon, they are not particularly popular
        > until after 1600.
        > Basically, it is usually better style NOT to have an
        > annulet.

        It seems confusing to this one to use the word
        'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
        since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
        mean a ring shape.

        > > 2. If the mon being registered bears an
        > unitentional resemblance to a
        > > now
        > > (presumably) defunct company can it still be
        > registered? [I discovered
        > > that
        > > something similar to the device I"m trying to get
        > registered was used
        > > by a
        > > film company in the early 60s. I can see at least
        > 4 points of
        > > difference,
        > > but this concerns me nonetheless.]
        >
        > The College of Arms does not currently compare
        > things to trademarks.
        > Your only problem might be obtrusive modernity.

        Unless it is a particularly well known trademark, you
        have no need to worry on that score.

        Rei

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      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called wa in Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets
        Message 3 of 23 , May 15, 2006
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > It seems confusing to this one to use the word
          > 'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
          > since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
          > mean a ring shape.

          Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called "wa" in
          Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets expressed in the
          Anglo-Norman hearldry of the College of Arms. One way to do it is as an
          annulet and the other is as a border. If you are thinking of the Tohei
          (I think it was) logo which has a triangle on the bottom and three
          rings arching above it, then you are thinking of a design approach
          which is not, to the best of my recollection, seen in Japan prior to
          the seventeenth century. In short, if that is what you are thinking of
          doing, then please think of something else.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
          | the trash by my email filters. |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Horatius at the Bridge
          Actually, it isn t the old Tohei logo, at least the name Tohei dosen t sound familiar from the description. Although, it is a fairly interesting one that I
          Message 4 of 23 , May 15, 2006
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            Actually, it isn't the old Tohei logo, at least the name Tohei dosen't sound
            familiar from the description. Although, it is a fairly interesting one that
            I wouldn't mind using for myself. I'm not sure of the company's name at the
            moment. The gentleman I'm helping isn't here right now. But the logo is a
            circle with a triangular section at the base and some kanji at the top. He
            means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional circle
            in the center, and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole
            thing.

            I have no idea about the original version's owner. Hopefully I"ve described
            it well enough for an enlightened opinion.



            "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
            you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





            >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
            >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
            >Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:17:44 -0400
            >
            >Noble Cousin!
            >
            >Greetings from Solveig!
            >
            > > It seems confusing to this one to use the word
            > > 'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
            > > since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
            > > mean a ring shape.
            >
            >Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called "wa" in
            >Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets expressed in the
            >Anglo-Norman hearldry of the College of Arms. One way to do it is as an
            >annulet and the other is as a border. If you are thinking of the Tohei
            >(I think it was) logo which has a triangle on the bottom and three
            >rings arching above it, then you are thinking of a design approach
            >which is not, to the best of my recollection, seen in Japan prior to
            >the seventeenth century. In short, if that is what you are thinking of
            >doing, then please think of something else.
            >
            > Your Humble Servant
            > Solveig Throndardottir
            > Amateur Scholar
            >
            >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            >| the trash by my email filters. |
            >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and
            Message 5 of 23 , May 16, 2006
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > But the logo is a circle with a triangular section at the base and
              > some kanji at the top. He
              > means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional
              > circle in the center,
              > and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole thing.

              With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely
              un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and Japanese like:

              Two dragon flies respectant <tincture>
              A well frame <tincture>
              A losenge <tincture>
              Nine besants 3x3
              A besant surrounded by eight besants
              A rabbit afronty <tincture>
              Within a well frame a tachibana blossom <tincture>
              Three tortoise scales <tincture>

              ????

              No anullae or other froo-froo is necessary.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Horatius at the Bridge
              What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be intricate.
              Message 6 of 23 , May 16, 2006
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                What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are
                two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be
                intricate. And yes, to me its very un-japanese. I just advise and build. I
                try not to make judgements. I couldnt' even convince him to adapt something
                from the Matsudaira (sp?) Piece-Goods book. One that he was lookingat came
                from an Usagi Yojimbo comic book.

                Incidentally, since my linguistic skills seem to be lacking, Whats a basant?



                "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                >Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:48:11 -0400
                >
                >Noble Cousin!
                >
                >Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > > But the logo is a circle with a triangular section at the base and
                > > some kanji at the top. He
                > > means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional
                > > circle in the center,
                > > and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole thing.
                >
                >With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely
                >un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and Japanese like:
                >
                > Two dragon flies respectant <tincture>
                > A well frame <tincture>
                > A losenge <tincture>
                > Nine besants 3x3
                > A besant surrounded by eight besants
                > A rabbit afronty <tincture>
                > Within a well frame a tachibana blossom <tincture>
                > Three tortoise scales <tincture>
                >
                >????
                >
                >No anullae or other froo-froo is necessary.
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                >| the trash by my email filters. |
                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Elaine Koogler
                ... It s actually a bezant, and it s a disc that s colored gold or yellow. Kiri
                Message 7 of 23 , May 16, 2006
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                  Horatius at the Bridge wrote:
                  > What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are
                  > two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be
                  > intricate. And yes, to me its very un-japanese. I just advise and
                  > build. I
                  > try not to make judgements. I couldnt' even convince him to adapt
                  > something
                  > from the Matsudaira (sp?) Piece-Goods book. One that he was lookingat
                  > came
                  > from an Usagi Yojimbo comic book.
                  >
                  > Incidentally, since my linguistic skills seem to be lacking, Whats a
                  > basant?
                  >
                  It's actually a bezant, and it's a disc that's colored gold or yellow.

                  Kiri
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to have
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 16, 2006
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with
                    Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to
                    have something Japanese or not? I know, you have probably already tried
                    this. He can of course try to put through Victorian English heraldry,
                    but it just isn't Japanese. You should also gently ask him to not tell
                    people that it is authentic if he insists upon something which is not
                    remotely authentic. As the College of Arms says, "You asked for it!
                    You've Got It! Toyota!" Just don't try to tell people that your Toyota
                    is a Rolls Royce or a Stuts Bearcat.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Horatius at the Bridge
                    Personally, I always thought the Beacat was kinda cool. But thats me. Victorian English? I ll look into that. But I think he wants japanese because he enamored
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 16, 2006
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                      Personally, I always thought the Beacat was kinda cool. But thats me.
                      Victorian English? I'll look into that. But I think he wants japanese
                      because he enamored with the armor and the general appearance of all things
                      japanese.Or maybe its just the mystique.

                      Oh well. Onward and upward. Thank you everyone for your advice. Hoefully I
                      can avert a crisis before it fully begins.



                      "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                      you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                      >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                      >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                      >Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:07:55 -0400
                      >
                      >Noble Cousin!
                      >
                      >Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with
                      >Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to
                      >have something Japanese or not? I know, you have probably already tried
                      >this. He can of course try to put through Victorian English heraldry,
                      >but it just isn't Japanese. You should also gently ask him to not tell
                      >people that it is authentic if he insists upon something which is not
                      >remotely authentic. As the College of Arms says, "You asked for it!
                      >You've Got It! Toyota!" Just don't try to tell people that your Toyota
                      >is a Rolls Royce or a Stuts Bearcat.
                      >
                      > Your Humble Servant
                      > Solveig Throndardottir
                      > Amateur Scholar
                      >
                      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      >| the trash by my email filters. |
                      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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