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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: On the registering of Mon

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  • chris hansen
    Clan Ishiyama in what was the princapality, now kindom of the Outlands has not been particularily active (may no longer exist) since the death of Sir Tadashi
    Message 1 of 23 , May 11, 2006
      Clan Ishiyama in what was the princapality, now kindom of the Outlands has not been particularily active (may no longer exist) since the death of Sir Tadashi some years ago. You may want to get on the Outlands or Barony of al Barran list to see if you can contact any remaining members.

      Otagiri Tatsuzou <ronbroberg@...> wrote:
      > > The Fukugawa crest is a three pointed mountain (volcano minus top?)
      > > with three lines that make a zed shape at its bottom (definately a
      > > river).
      >
      > No problem here either.
      >

      Would this conflict with the following badge registered to the Ishiyama?
      (Dark) A mountain of three peaks issuant from base, the
      peaks in bend, and in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi, all within an
      annulet.

      http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi



      Otagiri Tatsuzou
      Kenin of the Hatakeyama





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    • Michael Nakashima
      ... http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi ... Well...that sounds kinda like what I m going for...but I m
      Message 2 of 23 , May 11, 2006
        > Would this conflict with the following badge registered to the Ishiyama?
        > (Dark) A mountain of three peaks issuant from base, the
        > peaks in bend, and in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi, all within an
        > annulet.
        >
        >
        http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi
        >
        >
        >
        > Otagiri Tatsuzou
        > Kenin of the Hatakeyama
        >

        Well...that sounds kinda like what I'm going for...but I'm not too
        sure what the "in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi" looks like.
        However, I'm wanting to register the mon as a device, so mayhap that
        would make a difference...

        Thanks for the info!


        Hideyoshi
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It does not exist yet. The College of Arms has a long-term scanning project. If you live nearby to where its going
        Message 3 of 23 , May 11, 2006
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > I haven't found any place that all the arms are available in line
          > drawing form. If you know/find one let me know.

          It does not exist yet. The College of Arms has a long-term scanning
          project. If you live nearby to where its going on, I'm confident that
          they will accept your help.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
          | the trash by my email filters. |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... No, it should not conflict. However, I really hope that they go for the three triangles arranged in a triangle. Your
          Message 4 of 23 , May 11, 2006
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!
            > Would this conflict with the following badge registered to the
            > Ishiyama?
            > (Dark) A mountain of three peaks issuant from base, the
            > peaks in bend, and in chief a barrulet beviled arrondi, all within an
            > annulet.
            >
            > http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?
            > p=Takaguma%20Ishiyama%20no%20Sadomoni%20Bashi
            No, it should not conflict.

            However, I really hope that they go for the three triangles arranged in
            a triangle.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you are doing and how the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet
            Message 5 of 23 , May 11, 2006
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > 1. When registering a mon, does it make a difference if the annulet is
              > round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word annulet describe only one
              > particular shape?

              Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you are doing and how
              the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet goes all the way to the
              edge, then it becomes a border and all borders of the same tincture are
              equivalent. Incidentally, while there are a few examples of annulets in
              pre-1600 kamon, they are not particularly popular until after 1600.
              Basically, it is usually better style NOT to have an annulet.

              > 2. If the mon being registered bears an unitentional resemblance to a
              > now
              > (presumably) defunct company can it still be registered? [I discovered
              > that
              > something similar to the device I"m trying to get registered was used
              > by a
              > film company in the early 60s. I can see at least 4 points of
              > difference,
              > but this concerns me nonetheless.]

              The College of Arms does not currently compare things to trademarks.
              Your only problem might be obtrusive modernity.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Horatius at the Bridge
              THank you very much for the information. History doesn t always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, Why don t you listen to me? and lets fly with a
              Message 6 of 23 , May 11, 2006
                THank you very much for the information.


                "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                >Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:07:15 -0400
                >
                >Noble Cousin!
                >
                >Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > > 1. When registering a mon, does it make a difference if the annulet is
                > > round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word annulet describe only one
                > > particular shape?
                >
                >Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you are doing and how
                >the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet goes all the way to the
                >edge, then it becomes a border and all borders of the same tincture are
                >equivalent. Incidentally, while there are a few examples of annulets in
                >pre-1600 kamon, they are not particularly popular until after 1600.
                >Basically, it is usually better style NOT to have an annulet.
                >
                > > 2. If the mon being registered bears an unitentional resemblance to a
                > > now
                > > (presumably) defunct company can it still be registered? [I discovered
                > > that
                > > something similar to the device I"m trying to get registered was used
                > > by a
                > > film company in the early 60s. I can see at least 4 points of
                > > difference,
                > > but this concerns me nonetheless.]
                >
                >The College of Arms does not currently compare things to trademarks.
                >Your only problem might be obtrusive modernity.
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                >| the trash by my email filters. |
                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Rei Shounagon
                Konnichiwa, minna-sama! ... It seems confusing to this one to use the word annulet to describe all sorts of encircling shapes, since the word annulet is
                Message 7 of 23 , May 14, 2006
                  Konnichiwa, minna-sama!

                  Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:

                  > Noble Cousin!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                  >
                  > > 1. When registering a mon, does it make a
                  > difference if the annulet is
                  > > round, square or hexagonal? Or does the word
                  > annulet describe only one
                  > > particular shape?
                  >
                  > Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on exactly what you
                  > are doing and how
                  > the CoA decides to treat it. If the annulet goes all
                  > the way to the
                  > edge, then it becomes a border and all borders of
                  > the same tincture are
                  > equivalent. Incidentally, while there are a few
                  > examples of annulets in
                  > pre-1600 kamon, they are not particularly popular
                  > until after 1600.
                  > Basically, it is usually better style NOT to have an
                  > annulet.

                  It seems confusing to this one to use the word
                  'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
                  since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
                  mean a ring shape.

                  > > 2. If the mon being registered bears an
                  > unitentional resemblance to a
                  > > now
                  > > (presumably) defunct company can it still be
                  > registered? [I discovered
                  > > that
                  > > something similar to the device I"m trying to get
                  > registered was used
                  > > by a
                  > > film company in the early 60s. I can see at least
                  > 4 points of
                  > > difference,
                  > > but this concerns me nonetheless.]
                  >
                  > The College of Arms does not currently compare
                  > things to trademarks.
                  > Your only problem might be obtrusive modernity.

                  Unless it is a particularly well known trademark, you
                  have no need to worry on that score.

                  Rei

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                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called wa in Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 15, 2006
                    Noble Cousin!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > It seems confusing to this one to use the word
                    > 'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
                    > since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
                    > mean a ring shape.

                    Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called "wa" in
                    Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets expressed in the
                    Anglo-Norman hearldry of the College of Arms. One way to do it is as an
                    annulet and the other is as a border. If you are thinking of the Tohei
                    (I think it was) logo which has a triangle on the bottom and three
                    rings arching above it, then you are thinking of a design approach
                    which is not, to the best of my recollection, seen in Japan prior to
                    the seventeenth century. In short, if that is what you are thinking of
                    doing, then please think of something else.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Horatius at the Bridge
                    Actually, it isn t the old Tohei logo, at least the name Tohei dosen t sound familiar from the description. Although, it is a fairly interesting one that I
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 15, 2006
                      Actually, it isn't the old Tohei logo, at least the name Tohei dosen't sound
                      familiar from the description. Although, it is a fairly interesting one that
                      I wouldn't mind using for myself. I'm not sure of the company's name at the
                      moment. The gentleman I'm helping isn't here right now. But the logo is a
                      circle with a triangular section at the base and some kanji at the top. He
                      means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional circle
                      in the center, and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole
                      thing.

                      I have no idea about the original version's owner. Hopefully I"ve described
                      it well enough for an enlightened opinion.



                      "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                      you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                      >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                      >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                      >Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:17:44 -0400
                      >
                      >Noble Cousin!
                      >
                      >Greetings from Solveig!
                      >
                      > > It seems confusing to this one to use the word
                      > > 'annulet' to describe all sorts of encircling shapes,
                      > > since the word 'annulet' is used in nanban heraldry to
                      > > mean a ring shape.
                      >
                      >Ring like things that encircle a charge group are called "wa" in
                      >Japanese heraldry. The problem is how the thing gets expressed in the
                      >Anglo-Norman hearldry of the College of Arms. One way to do it is as an
                      >annulet and the other is as a border. If you are thinking of the Tohei
                      >(I think it was) logo which has a triangle on the bottom and three
                      >rings arching above it, then you are thinking of a design approach
                      >which is not, to the best of my recollection, seen in Japan prior to
                      >the seventeenth century. In short, if that is what you are thinking of
                      >doing, then please think of something else.
                      >
                      > Your Humble Servant
                      > Solveig Throndardottir
                      > Amateur Scholar
                      >
                      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                      >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      >| the trash by my email filters. |
                      >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 16, 2006
                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > But the logo is a circle with a triangular section at the base and
                        > some kanji at the top. He
                        > means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional
                        > circle in the center,
                        > and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole thing.

                        With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely
                        un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and Japanese like:

                        Two dragon flies respectant <tincture>
                        A well frame <tincture>
                        A losenge <tincture>
                        Nine besants 3x3
                        A besant surrounded by eight besants
                        A rabbit afronty <tincture>
                        Within a well frame a tachibana blossom <tincture>
                        Three tortoise scales <tincture>

                        ????

                        No anullae or other froo-froo is necessary.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Horatius at the Bridge
                        What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be intricate.
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 16, 2006
                          What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are
                          two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be
                          intricate. And yes, to me its very un-japanese. I just advise and build. I
                          try not to make judgements. I couldnt' even convince him to adapt something
                          from the Matsudaira (sp?) Piece-Goods book. One that he was lookingat came
                          from an Usagi Yojimbo comic book.

                          Incidentally, since my linguistic skills seem to be lacking, Whats a basant?



                          "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                          you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                          >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                          >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                          >Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:48:11 -0400
                          >
                          >Noble Cousin!
                          >
                          >Greetings from Solveig!
                          >
                          > > But the logo is a circle with a triangular section at the base and
                          > > some kanji at the top. He
                          > > means to modify it by removing the kanji and inserting an additional
                          > > circle in the center,
                          > > and then adding either a circle or hexagon around the whole thing.
                          >
                          >With all due respect, BARF! The result sound hideous and definitely
                          >un-Japanese. Why not go for something nice and Japanese like:
                          >
                          > Two dragon flies respectant <tincture>
                          > A well frame <tincture>
                          > A losenge <tincture>
                          > Nine besants 3x3
                          > A besant surrounded by eight besants
                          > A rabbit afronty <tincture>
                          > Within a well frame a tachibana blossom <tincture>
                          > Three tortoise scales <tincture>
                          >
                          >????
                          >
                          >No anullae or other froo-froo is necessary.
                          >
                          > Your Humble Servant
                          > Solveig Throndardottir
                          > Amateur Scholar
                          >
                          >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                          >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                          >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          >| the trash by my email filters. |
                          >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Elaine Koogler
                          ... It s actually a bezant, and it s a disc that s colored gold or yellow. Kiri
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 16, 2006
                            Horatius at the Bridge wrote:
                            > What I find acceptable for a mon and what he wants to try to register are
                            > two different things. I went with a map symbol for my mon. He wants to be
                            > intricate. And yes, to me its very un-japanese. I just advise and
                            > build. I
                            > try not to make judgements. I couldnt' even convince him to adapt
                            > something
                            > from the Matsudaira (sp?) Piece-Goods book. One that he was lookingat
                            > came
                            > from an Usagi Yojimbo comic book.
                            >
                            > Incidentally, since my linguistic skills seem to be lacking, Whats a
                            > basant?
                            >
                            It's actually a bezant, and it's a disc that's colored gold or yellow.

                            Kiri
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to have
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 16, 2006
                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with
                              Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to
                              have something Japanese or not? I know, you have probably already tried
                              this. He can of course try to put through Victorian English heraldry,
                              but it just isn't Japanese. You should also gently ask him to not tell
                              people that it is authentic if he insists upon something which is not
                              remotely authentic. As the College of Arms says, "You asked for it!
                              You've Got It! Toyota!" Just don't try to tell people that your Toyota
                              is a Rolls Royce or a Stuts Bearcat.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              | the trash by my email filters. |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Horatius at the Bridge
                              Personally, I always thought the Beacat was kinda cool. But thats me. Victorian English? I ll look into that. But I think he wants japanese because he enamored
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 16, 2006
                                Personally, I always thought the Beacat was kinda cool. But thats me.
                                Victorian English? I'll look into that. But I think he wants japanese
                                because he enamored with the armor and the general appearance of all things
                                japanese.Or maybe its just the mystique.

                                Oh well. Onward and upward. Thank you everyone for your advice. Hoefully I
                                can avert a crisis before it fully begins.



                                "History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just screams, 'Why don't
                                you listen to me?' and lets fly with a big stick." --John W. Campbell Jr





                                >From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                >Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] On the registering of Mon quick questions
                                >Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:07:55 -0400
                                >
                                >Noble Cousin!
                                >
                                >Greetings from Solveig! Sounds like your client is smitten with
                                >Victorian English heraldry. Why not gently ask him whether he wants to
                                >have something Japanese or not? I know, you have probably already tried
                                >this. He can of course try to put through Victorian English heraldry,
                                >but it just isn't Japanese. You should also gently ask him to not tell
                                >people that it is authentic if he insists upon something which is not
                                >remotely authentic. As the College of Arms says, "You asked for it!
                                >You've Got It! Toyota!" Just don't try to tell people that your Toyota
                                >is a Rolls Royce or a Stuts Bearcat.
                                >
                                > Your Humble Servant
                                > Solveig Throndardottir
                                > Amateur Scholar
                                >
                                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                >| the trash by my email filters. |
                                >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                >
                                >
                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
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